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Post by Fight On! on Jan 24, 2018 13:29:54 GMT -5
These questions have been asked and answered for more than 50 years now. Either you aren't aware of that, in which case you should educate yourself before you go posting about it, or you are aware of it and you just don't like the answers. If you can propose better rules than we have now, do so. If not, then I'll continue to assume any further complaining about this is whining due to outrage. Okay volleytalk. To have Mike's official permission to post you must do 2 hours of research. Do that or be labeled as an 'outraged' poster. The irony is this. The the purpose of my post was to see if you and others saying 'shut up' can see any perspective other than their own. The answer is that you are as narrow as you seemed, this being the last in a string of attempts to avoid answering and instead invalidate and silence. It's not hard people. Mike just be honest, what would you think about Lebron to female playing in the WNBA? P.S. Do you usually whine when you are outraged Mike? Hm you really are an eccentric. =b I will think about LeBron as a woman player in the WNBA when it happens. Otherwise, what is the purpose of turning this discussion towards ridiculous hypothetical scenarios? And just so you can stop beating that poor dead horse: if the WNBA allows it, she would have an advantage over other athletes (just as Griner does now) but it will be fair as she would be abiding by the rules set by the governing body. Would it ruin women’s basketball for the rest of the world forever? No.
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Post by SuperSpike on Jan 25, 2018 19:02:27 GMT -5
Okay volleytalk. To have Mike's official permission to post you must do 2 hours of research. Do that or be labeled as an 'outraged' poster. The irony is this. The the purpose of my post was to see if you and others saying 'shut up' can see any perspective other than their own. The answer is that you are as narrow as you seemed, this being the last in a string of attempts to avoid answering and instead invalidate and silence. It's not hard people. Mike just be honest, what would you think about Lebron to female playing in the WNBA? P.S. Do you usually whine when you are outraged Mike? Hm you really are an eccentric. =b I will think about LeBron as a woman player in the WNBA when it happens. Otherwise, what is the purpose of turning this discussion towards ridiculous hypothetical scenarios? And just so you can stop beating that poor dead horse: if the WNBA allows it, she would have an advantage over other athletes (just as Griner does now) but it will be fair as she would be abiding by the rules set by the governing body. Would it ruin women’s basketball for the rest of the world forever? No. Ah! You did answer, finally. Would it ruin WBB forever? I didn't say that and we'd both probably say no. Would it be pretty bad for WBB fairness? I'd argue yes. And remember these benefits go one way. No elite female is going to be better relative to competition for a sex change. That will only occur Male to Female. So, men can come and take elite spots from women, post op. Women can't just switch and expect to be an elite male. Some women aren't a fan of giving men the option to transition and have elevated opportunity/advantage in something they've worked a lifetime for. I was really only wanting to call out the 'shut up your thoughts are irrelevant' crowd and have them be open minded enough to consider/dialogue about some things. This change has potentially significant implications, so it's not as unreasonable as you may think for people to discuss it. There's no reason to try so hard to show the other side as not allowed to have thoughts, arguments, questions, and opinions. People who would rather resort to those low means of dialogue instead of pursuasive discourse just lose themselves credibility.
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 25, 2018 19:36:30 GMT -5
I will think about LeBron as a woman player in the WNBA when it happens. Otherwise, what is the purpose of turning this discussion towards ridiculous hypothetical scenarios? And just so you can stop beating that poor dead horse: if the WNBA allows it, she would have an advantage over other athletes (just as Griner does now) but it will be fair as she would be abiding by the rules set by the governing body. Would it ruin women’s basketball for the rest of the world forever? No. And remember these benefits go one way. No elite female is going to be better relative to competition for a sex change. That will only occur Male to Female. So, men can come and take elite spots from women, post op. Women can't just switch and expect to be an elite male. Some women aren't a fan of giving men the option to transition and have elevated opportunity/advantage in something they've worked a lifetime for. I was really only wanting to call out the 'shut up your thoughts are irrelevant' crowd and have them be open minded enough to consider/dialogue about some things. This change has potentially significant implications, so it's not as unreasonable as you may think for people to discuss it. There's no reason to try so hard to show the other side as not allowed to have thoughts, arguments, questions, and opinions. People who would rather resort to those low means of dialogue instead of pursuasive discourse just lose themselves credibility. Paragraph 1) What does this have to do with anything? Why would FTM athletes have to have equal chances to be elite post-transition (the post-op part is irrelevant as the rules do not require any surgery) as MTF athletes? I see no relevance. In addition, there are always people who do not want to extend rights and privileges to other. So what? Some men did not want women to vote. Some whites did not want slaves to be free. So, some women do not value the importance of trans athletes’ rights in sport. What of it? Paragraph 2) You weren’t bring up anything new. Rather you were just posing the same types of silly hypotheticals that have been brought up over the past thirty pages. You are implying that if people don’t say, “You are right. The best woman player in the world should be born as a female,” that they are not being open minded. You can see my posts throughout this thread. So, I know what has been discussed ad nauseum. Of course people are allowed to have their own arguments, throughts, and questions - but if they are not relevant to the discussion (such as your LeBron hypotetical), why entertain them?
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Post by donut on Jan 26, 2018 12:59:45 GMT -5
I will think about LeBron as a woman player in the WNBA when it happens. Otherwise, what is the purpose of turning this discussion towards ridiculous hypothetical scenarios? And just so you can stop beating that poor dead horse: if the WNBA allows it, she would have an advantage over other athletes (just as Griner does now) but it will be fair as she would be abiding by the rules set by the governing body. Would it ruin women’s basketball for the rest of the world forever? No. I was really only wanting to call out the 'shut up your thoughts are irrelevant' crowd and have them be open minded enough to consider/dialogue about some things. This change has potentially significant implications, so it's not as unreasonable as you may think for people to discuss it. There's no reason to try so hard to show the other side as not allowed to have thoughts, arguments, questions, and opinions. People who would rather resort to those low means of dialogue instead of pursuasive discourse just lose themselves credibility. I'm getting really tired of the transgender-athlethes-shouldn't-be-able-to-play camp using this phrase throughout this thread, which is just false. Please point out where this is overwhelmingly happening (the only person to use the word "shut" belongs to the aforementioned camp). What's really happening is someone like yourself is making a claim or asking a question, and posters like myself are attacking the assumption (unstated premise) which makes the claim or point of the question irrelevant. Posters like yourself could easily respond by reinforcing your assumption, or attacking the argument made against your assumption. For example, a little Debate 101 for ya: You: What would happen if Lebron James became a woman? Doubletrojan/other posters: That is close to impossible so it isn't worth talking about. You: **WHAT YOU COULD ARGUE is why something is worth discussing, even if it isn't likely to happen. OR why you think it's likely to happen. No one is telling you to shut up. They are telling you 1) your answers are in this thread and 2) your question is irrelevant by attacking an assumption in your claim. I also think it's really annoying you asked a question (on a forum) to (poorly) drive an agenda. Just state what you're trying to say.
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Post by vup on Jan 26, 2018 18:17:12 GMT -5
Humanity comes before competition. We must have compassion for trans athletes. They did not choose this. If they did, then they would choose to be cisgender in a heart beat. I think the humane thing to do is to be accommodating and accepting.
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 26, 2018 18:29:04 GMT -5
Humanity comes before competition. We must have compassion for trans athletes. They did not choose this. If they did, then they would choose to be cisgender in a heart beat. I think the humane thing to do is to be accommodating and accepting. Oh gees....what a bunch of crap. We owe it to all the athletes to make sure the competition if the most fair we can make it or else you compromise the sport and its respect. Who does not accept transgender athletes but because we sympathize with them we shouldn't protect the other million athletes competing in earnest? Ridiculous.
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Post by vup on Jan 26, 2018 18:34:17 GMT -5
Humanity comes before competition. We must have compassion for trans athletes. They did not choose this. If they did, then they would choose to be cisgender in a heart beat. I think the humane thing to do is to be accommodating and accepting. Oh gees....what a bunch of crap. We owe it to all the athletes to make sure the competition if the most fair we can make it or else you compromise the sport and its respect. Who does not accept transgender athletes but because why sympathize with them we shouldn't protect the other million athletes competing in earnest? Ridiculous. Little harsh, dude. You know I love you. I don't think putting humanity first is a bunch of crap, thank you very much. If it's too corny for right now, so be it, but this topic is bigger than the game.
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 26, 2018 18:38:10 GMT -5
Oh gees....what a bunch of crap. We owe it to all the athletes to make sure the competition if the most fair we can make it or else you compromise the sport and its respect. Who does not accept transgender athletes but because why sympathize with them we shouldn't protect the other million athletes competing in earnest? Ridiculous. Little harsh, dude. You know I love you. I don't think putting humanity first is a bunch of crap, thank you very much. If it's too corny for right now, so be it, but this topic is bigger than the game. Each sport must maintain its integrity. This is not about biased but fairness Yup. Sorry....I didn't realize it was you by the way but I stand behind this. Once you open that flood gate then their is no going back. Think about how you would feel if you were beat in the NC by a team with an explosive transgender player. Its not their fault that they were allowed to play but can you imagine the speculation and accusations of unfairness and it takes away from the sport. Just my two cents.
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Post by vup on Jan 26, 2018 18:42:33 GMT -5
Little harsh, dude. You know I love you. I don't think putting humanity first is a bunch of crap, thank you very much. If it's too corny for right now, so be it, but this topic is bigger than the game. Each sport must maintain its integrity. This is not about biased but fairness Yup. Sorry....I didn't realize it was you by the way but I stand behind this. Once you open that flood gate then their is no going back. Think about how you would feel if you were beat in the NC by a team with an explosive transgender player. Its not their fault that they were allowed to play but can you imagine the speculation and accusations of unfairness and it takes away from the sport. Just my two cents. Fair enough. I'm gonna have to change my username to Yup sometime for you... Ughhh
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Post by huskerholiday on Jan 26, 2018 18:44:58 GMT -5
Each sport must maintain its integrity. This is not about biased but fairness Yup. Sorry....I didn't realize it was you by the way but I stand behind this. Once you open that flood gate then their is no going back. Think about how you would feel if you were beat in the NC by a team with an explosive transgender player. Its not their fault that they were allowed to play but can you imagine the speculation and accusations of unfairness and it takes away from the sport. Just my two cents. Fair enough. I'm gonna have to change my username to Yup sometime for you... Ughhh LOL....sorry about biting . I will work on that.
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Post by vup on Jan 26, 2018 18:51:12 GMT -5
Fair enough. I'm gonna have to change my username to Yup sometime for you... Ughhh LOL....sorry about biting . I will work on that. Lmao. You're good, my friend.
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Post by SuperSpike on Jan 27, 2018 16:26:49 GMT -5
I was really only wanting to call out the 'shut up your thoughts are irrelevant' crowd and have them be open minded enough to consider/dialogue about some things. This change has potentially significant implications, so it's not as unreasonable as you may think for people to discuss it. There's no reason to try so hard to show the other side as not allowed to have thoughts, arguments, questions, and opinions. People who would rather resort to those low means of dialogue instead of pursuasive discourse just lose themselves credibility. I'm getting really tired of the transgender-athlethes-shouldn't-be-able-to-play camp using this phrase throughout this thread, which is just false. Please point out where this is overwhelmingly happening (the only person to use the word "shut" belongs to the aforementioned camp). What's really happening is someone like yourself is making a claim or asking a question, and posters like myself are attacking the assumption (unstated premise) which makes the claim or point of the question irrelevant. Posters like yourself could easily respond by reinforcing your assumption, or attacking the argument made against your assumption. For example, a little Debate 101 for ya: You: What would happen if Lebron James became a woman? Doubletrojan/other posters: That is close to impossible so it isn't worth talking about. You: **WHAT YOU COULD ARGUE is why something is worth discussing, even if it isn't likely to happen. OR why you think it's likely to happen. No one is telling you to shut up. They are telling you 1) your answers are in this thread and 2) your question is irrelevant by attacking an assumption in your claim. I also think it's really annoying you asked a question (on a forum) to (poorly) drive an agenda. Just state what you're trying to say. 'You: What would happen if Lebron James became a woman? Doubletrojan/other posters: That is close to impossible so it isn't worth talking about. You: **WHAT YOU COULD ARGUE is why something is worth discussing, ' It is self-evident that you consider outcomes at the start. Of course there will be more MtF and also better athletes. In the future, lifetime/born women who are at the top may get replaced. Like Fallon Fox (MMA). If there is value to sports, it is pretty tarnished when fairness is lacking. (and do you really want me to cut EVERY time someone tried to essentially say 'shut up'? It's not really worth the time now that people have stopped with all the disingenuous 'My argument is your thought is irrelevant' stuff)
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 27, 2018 16:43:25 GMT -5
I'm getting really tired of the transgender-athlethes-shouldn't-be-able-to-play camp using this phrase throughout this thread, which is just false. Please point out where this is overwhelmingly happening (the only person to use the word "shut" belongs to the aforementioned camp). What's really happening is someone like yourself is making a claim or asking a question, and posters like myself are attacking the assumption (unstated premise) which makes the claim or point of the question irrelevant. Posters like yourself could easily respond by reinforcing your assumption, or attacking the argument made against your assumption. For example, a little Debate 101 for ya: You: What would happen if Lebron James became a woman? Doubletrojan/other posters: That is close to impossible so it isn't worth talking about. You: **WHAT YOU COULD ARGUE is why something is worth discussing, even if it isn't likely to happen. OR why you think it's likely to happen. No one is telling you to shut up. They are telling you 1) your answers are in this thread and 2) your question is irrelevant by attacking an assumption in your claim. I also think it's really annoying you asked a question (on a forum) to (poorly) drive an agenda. Just state what you're trying to say. 'You: What would happen if Lebron James became a woman? Doubletrojan/other posters: That is close to impossible so it isn't worth talking about. You: **WHAT YOU COULD ARGUE is why something is worth discussing, ' It is self-evident that you consider outcomes at the start. Of course there will be more MtF and also better athletes. In the future, lifetime/born women who are at the top may get replaced. Like Fallon Fox (MMA). If there is value to sports, it is pretty tarnished when fairness is lacking. (and do you really want me to cut EVERY time someone tried to essentially say 'shut up'? It's not really worth the time now that people have stopped with all the disingenuous 'My argument is your thought is irrelevant' stuff) My argument is that your posts are irrelevant.
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Post by trying2learn on Jan 27, 2018 16:46:51 GMT -5
I have posted in this thread before saying that in matters like these, the legitimacy of FIVB itself is to be questioned, as I don't believe the sport federation is, by definition, a bastion of justice, fairness, and athletes rights. However, in regards to the discussion, it has recently held a medical meeting in Lausanne regarding the issue at hand: "The Commission reiterated that FIVB‘s goal is to establish an athletic participation system that is inclusive and that takes into account the individual choices of athletes, while at the same time, ensuring a level playing field on the court. It also decided that for the moment, pending an institutional research effort to be undertaken in the future, it will adhere to the IOC’s current positioning regarding transgender athletes participation in international sporting events, and that in national competitions, the respective national federations will have the final say on the matter." Source volleymob.com/fivbs-medical-commission-met-discuss-trans-athletes-rights/
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Post by Fight On! on Jan 28, 2018 4:17:40 GMT -5
I have posted in this thread before saying that in matters like these, the legitimacy of FIVB itself is to be questioned, as I don't believe the sport federation is, by definition, a bastion of justice, fairness, and athletes rights. However, in regards to the discussion, it has recently held a medical meeting in Lausanne regarding the issue at hand: "The Commission reiterated that FIVB‘s goal is to establish an athletic participation system that is inclusive and that takes into account the individual choices of athletes, while at the same time, ensuring a level playing field on the court. It also decided that for the moment, pending an institutional research effort to be undertaken in the future, it will adhere to the IOC’s current positioning regarding transgender athletes participation in international sporting events, and that in national competitions, the respective national federations will have the final say on the matter." Source volleymob.com/fivbs-medical-commission-met-discuss-trans-athletes-rights/Woohoo! You bunch can whine about how the sport’s governing bodies lack integrity and don’t care about fairness for years to come because you are so concerned about providing rights to this individual player. If I were you, I would call Chicken Little to remind him that the sky is falling.
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