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Post by beavis on May 14, 2019 22:50:41 GMT -5
Simple question, Guest2. You have seen every important player over the past 20 years, most in person. How many AVP's have you been to during the past 5 years which has allowed you to see them in person? Oh, that's right - absolutely zero AVP's. How many FIVB's? One? in five years? Please list, and then let's compare. How many are you going to this summer? And how long with any tour survive without actually putting idiots like us in the stands?
You are so correct - watching livestream from different angles and views is sooooo much better than watching in person, being 5 feet from the players, on the outside courts. Feeling the wind, and watching it blow the sets 5 feet off the net and watching the players try to adjust, again, from a few feet away. Better yet, helping on the Court itself as a "ball boy," and being right there on the Court with all 4 players. Moving to different positions to watch. Watching their facial displays during and after every play. Listening to them discuss strategy with their coaches (or just by themselves) from 2 feet away. But yes, of course you are correct. Watching on a computer in your parent's basement is much better than being there in person, and being there in person makes me the equivalent of "being in the studio audience on an old sitcom." Do you actually listen to yourself? Can you not see how incredibly stupid that sounds? Do you not understand that without us going to the tournaments, there is no livestream for you to moronically stare at? Let's not have tournaments anymore - let's just have the players play somewhere by themselves and then livestream it for Guest2 to watch. Excellent long-term plan to grow the sport, Dude. I would suggest it to Donald, Kerri, Al Hannneman and the FIVB folks, because who needs idiots watching matches in person, and who are thus not able to see all of the wondrous things you can see through the miracle of livestreaming.
By the way, I said April is consistently one of the best players in the world, not the very best like you said about Pavan. Then again, I'm sure I don't see what you see because I have only watched Pavan several times in person over the past few years, and you have watched her once in person and fell in love with her! Keep not going to tournaments, Guest2 - stay glued to your computer, and then talk about actual tournaments and what happened at them by reading what other folks say about them. But please, don't experience any of them in person - why would you wen you have your computer or phone to watch matches on?
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Post by guest2 on May 14, 2019 23:21:08 GMT -5
Simple question, Guest2. You have seen every important player over the past 20 years, most in person. How many AVP's have you been to during the past 5 years which has allowed you to see them in person? Oh, that's right - absolutely zero AVP's. How many FIVB's? One? in five years? Please list, and then let's compare. How many are you going to this summer? And how long with any tour survive without actually putting idiots like us in the stands? Two actually, both of which had very few fans at them, as do most FIVB events. Of course the FIVB has a different model from the AVP and for them, local fans are more important. Howeve that tour has persisted for two decades now despite very rarely having good crowds at any but a few events and the majority of days the players may as well be playing at Belmar on a weekday morningYou are so correct - watching livestream from different angles and views is sooooo much better than watching in person, being 5 feet from the players, on the outside courts. Feeling the wind, and watching it blow the sets 5 feet off the net and watching the players try to adjust, again, from a few feet away. Better yet, helping on the Court itself as a "ball boy," and being right there on the Court with all 4 players. Yes, it is. Because you can move around in person, sometimes, if the court isnt crowded or you arent on center court. What you cant do is watch a close up of a net joust, then switch to a back view, then take a look from a vantage point 30 feet above the court and zoomed in. Moving to different positions to watch. Watching their facial displays during and after every play. Listening to them discuss strategy with their coaches (or just by themselves) from 2 feet away. But yes, of course you are correct. Watching on a computer in your parent's basement is much better than being there in person, and being there in person makes me the equivalent of "being in the studio audience on an old sitcom." I didnt think you would need an explanation there, but its an apt analogy. Studio audiences, like live audiences, exist to enhance the experience for the target market, the audience at home. You think Coppertone or Nestea or big national sponsors want to sponsor the AVP so they can give out a few free samples at Austin, at a beach where 90% of the people brought their own sunscreen? Or do you think they want an audience of a few hundred thousand to a million - AVP numbers - to see their product and associate it with the beach?Do you actually listen to yourself? Can you not see how incredibly stupid that sounds? Do you not understand that without us going to the tournaments, there is no livestream for you to moronically stare at? Let's not have tournaments anymore - let's just have the players play somewhere by themselves and then livestream it for Guest2 to watch. Other than the livestreaming you have hit on the USA Volleyball modelExcellent long-term plan to grow the sport, Dude. I would suggest it to Donald, Kerri, Al Hannneman and the FIVB folks, because who needs idiots watching matches in person, and who are thus not able to see all of the wondrous things you can see through the miracle of livestreaming. Livestreaming is the only thing keeping the sport alive - that and whatever Donald Sun's dad's name is, since its died on tv. Why not ask Donald Sun if he would trade a 25% decrease in live attendance for a 5% increase in people "moronically staring at a livestream" in their parents basement. Whether he would or not, his sponsors certainly would. By the way, I said April is consistently one of the best players in the world, not the very best like you said about Pavan. I recall that differently, but either way you said she was better than Pavan and at the time that simply wasn't true.Then again, I'm sure I don't see what you see because I have only watched Pavan several times in person over the past few years, and you have watched her once in person and fell in love with her! Keep not going to tournaments, Guest2 - stay glued to your computer, and then talk about actual tournaments and what happened at them by reading what other folks say about them. But please, don't experience any of them in person - why would you wen you have your computer or phone to watch matches on? Why would I attend an AVP? If I am going to travel to an event - and every BVB event is a multi-day trip for me, not including the time on-site, why would I go to an AVP? The quality of play is very low compared to an FIVB and most of those events, in fact all of them except Brazil, are closer to where I live. But you realize your weird attendance-based attacks are all some version of "you aren't a US based retiree with tons of free time to travel" so you don't know anything. First of all, what difference does it make how much a fan knows before they can comment and second, plenty of fans who regularly attend arent the most educated fans (which is not an attack in my view). Take volleyballjim one of my favorite posters. On a Facebook live stream he got off one of the best one liners Ive ever heard about David Lee, who was playing poorly. On hearing he was an Olympian, Jim said, "definitely not in volleyball." But say expertise does matter, how many games do you think the NFL studio team attends and watches anywhere but from a monitor?
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Post by goldengirlsx3 on May 15, 2019 6:56:25 GMT -5
Simple question, Guest2. You have seen every important player over the past 20 years, most in person. How many AVP's have you been to during the past 5 years which has allowed you to see them in person? Oh, that's right - absolutely zero AVP's. How many FIVB's? One? in five years? Please list, and then let's compare. How many are you going to this summer? And how long with any tour survive without actually putting idiots like us in the stands? You are so correct - watching livestream from different angles and views is sooooo much better than watching in person, being 5 feet from the players, on the outside courts. Feeling the wind, and watching it blow the sets 5 feet off the net and watching the players try to adjust, again, from a few feet away. Better yet, helping on the Court itself as a "ball boy," and being right there on the Court with all 4 players. Moving to different positions to watch. Watching their facial displays during and after every play. Listening to them discuss strategy with their coaches (or just by themselves) from 2 feet away. But yes, of course you are correct. Watching on a computer in your parent's basement is much better than being there in person, and being there in person makes me the equivalent of "being in the studio audience on an old sitcom." Do you actually listen to yourself? Can you not see how incredibly stupid that sounds? Do you not understand that without us going to the tournaments, there is no livestream for you to moronically stare at? Let's not have tournaments anymore - let's just have the players play somewhere by themselves and then livestream it for Guest2 to watch. Excellent long-term plan to grow the sport, Dude. I would suggest it to Donald, Kerri, Al Hannneman and the FIVB folks, because who needs idiots watching matches in person, and who are thus not able to see all of the wondrous things you can see through the miracle of livestreaming. By the way, I said April is consistently one of the best players in the world, not the very best like you said about Pavan. Then again, I'm sure I don't see what you see because I have only watched Pavan several times in person over the past few years, and you have watched her once in person and fell in love with her! Keep not going to tournaments, Guest2 - stay glued to your computer, and then talk about actual tournaments and what happened at them by reading what other folks say about them. But please, don't experience any of them in person - why would you wen you have your computer or phone to watch matches on? Beavis...I do agree with you that the on-site experience is incredible. But also agree with Guest that in order to break down the players & their game, there is nothing like stream/video! My favorite way of viewing of course is being right on the court with KWJ like in Vegas. Will never experience that again unless 1440 runs more domestic tournaments in a place I can afford to go!!!
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Post by beavis on May 15, 2019 23:51:26 GMT -5
Why would anyone ever go to an AVP event? Why would you? What a great question, Guest2! You diss them by asserting that the play is "very low level. But them why is it good enough for you to watch all of the AVP matches on your computer, whine like a little baby every time the livestream fails to perform to the level you demand, and post thousands of comments enlightening us with your brilliant assessments about the players, the commentators, the teams, the poor livestream quality, etc. Why in the world are you wasting precious time by even watching the livestreams of such "very low level" matches?
Please enlighten us - how exactly does this work? Why would anyone who is such an incredible expert on all things beach volleyball, but who would never waste his time attending an event in person, think it is OK to criticize the quality, conduct and efficacy of an event he has never deigned to attend? Not just that, however. The "very low level" of play dictates that you would never bless the AVP with your actual presence - we get it. But why on earth would any of us morons actually attend a tournament? Especially if we can reap all of the benefits of being able to watch, and then criticize, every aspect of that tournament without ever actually going? After all, you can learn anything and everything you ever need to know about the 8 AVP tour stops by watching little snippets of it on a 10 inch screen! Why not simply make a bevy of baseless generalizations about the "very low level" of play and whine about the AVP's failure to grow in accordance with your own personal expectations? Better yet, why not display your immense condescension and arrogance by categorizing and entire group of amazingly dedicated and hardworking athletes as "very low level?" Again, if it all sucks so bad, why are you watching AVP matches in the first place?
Here's why we go in person. First, its fun as hell, and exciting as all get out, to meet and interact with other fans, players, coaches, officials, community members and others. 5 days on a beautiful beach. What could possibly be better? But more importantly, if everyone thought and acted like you, there would be no AVP tournaments. At all. Ever. Anywhere. Nothing for posers like you to watch. Nothing for you to critique. Nothing for you to ever comment on again. Awesome! So please, everyone - heed the Guest2 advice, and just stop going to these tournaments in person, and he will get his wish! No crappy AVP with its "very low level" of play to suffer through. No sponsors to interact with fans at the AVP sites and hand out their free crap, (even though the number of sponsors with booths at Huntington seemingly tripled). No US Tour to help grow our US athletes. No AVP Next Tour for the upcoming crop of college beach women to test their skills on. GO GUEST2!!! No way - you're not elitist at all!
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Post by guest2 on May 16, 2019 0:46:03 GMT -5
Why would anyone ever go to an AVP event? Why would you? What a great question, Guest2! You diss them by asserting that the play is "very low level. But them why is it good enough for you to watch all of the AVP matches on your computer, whine like a little baby every time the livestream fails to perform to the level you demand, and post thousands of comments enlightening us with your brilliant assessments about the players, the commentators, the teams, the poor livestream quality, etc. Why in the world are you wasting precious time by even watching the livestreams of such "very low level" matches? Ill use smaller paragraphs for you, since you seem to not understand. Do you know how comparative adjectives work? I didnt say the AVP was very low level, I said the level of play was very low compared to an FIVB. Is that even a disputable point? Ana/Rebecca and Kerri are in the qualifier at a weak 4 star. That may not compare to Luers v Dentler in your eyes but Almost every FIVB is closer to where I live (I think its 100% but without a map...) Most FIVBs are in cities more interesting to me than where AVPs are. Ive lived in Socal and NYC, whereas most FIVB cities I have barely visited, if at all. Thats a personal preference though AVP cities are much more expensive than most FIVB cities other than Doha to stay in and move around in. (LA or Seattle without a car?) So tell me, why would I spend more time travelling, more money travelling, more money on-site, to see an inferior event? How often do you fly to Virginia Beach to watch Hudson and Adam Roberts contest Big Money events? Or Florida for the Dig the Beach national championships which feature Ricardo, Piotr and more excellent players? I love the AVP and have been a fan since Karch was trying to find a partner to take down Smith Stoklos, but its a minor league tour thats more expensive to attend. So tell me again, if I am going to go to an event, why would it be Seattle to watch Ed Ratledge contest a final v Phil/Nick, rather than Hamburg to see Mol/Sorum take on Nick/Phil?
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Post by downtheline on May 16, 2019 2:04:00 GMT -5
I love the beach as much as anyone, but traveling to these far flung venues is beyond my budget.
So, the advent of video/streaming/archival/replay gives us a FANtastic tool.
This experience when refined should help boost eyeball count opportunities, imho
If I can make The SoCal circuit in person, great, but paying for FIVB LiveStream or Amazon Prime is a deal for me and a real time saver.
Actually going home and rewatching what I saw live was even better as I saw things differently from the live action .
The revenue source that’s driving the future of BVB is top quality matches in a pay as you watch or watch the ads as you watch format.
Getting the venue and fans to the beach is expensive and finite.
You’d have to create food, beverage & souvenir sales revenue to enhance profits at the events, but I’ve never really seen that well executed at BVB matches.
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Post by beavis on May 17, 2019 0:57:35 GMT -5
downtheline - please, please don't take my disdain for Guest2's constantly negative, anti-AVP rhetoric as a dig (no pun intended!) against anyone else who watches the matches online. It is very expensive to attend these tournaments, and we only are lucky enough to get to 4 or 5 AVP tournaments each summer, as well as the few FIVB's which, at least for the prior 4-5 years, have been held on US soil. I also love watching the live streams when I can't get to the events in person, and agree that it is a fantastic tool which will hopefully add to the growth of both the sport and the AVP. I realize that my wife and I, as we approach retirement (but are both still working full-time), are both blessed and lucky to be able to attend some of the live AVP tournaments each year. I am also incredibly lucky to have met a few of the posters on here in person, to have broken bread or had a beer with some of them, and to even have become good friends with a few. Almost everyone is like you - appreciative of the chance to catch a few live tournaments, grateful that we even have AVP events to attend in the first place, and both courteous and kind in their interactions and judgments of other folks. But I also think that, unless there are well-attended live tournaments upon which to base your livestream, the whole thing collapses and goes away.
As a result, my issue with know-it-all Guest2 has always been his callous comments and bitter over-generalizations against both the average, hard-working AVP lower to mid-level players, against male coaches (who he maintained should not be allowed to coach female athletes because of their propensity to sexually harass and be otherwise inappropriate with them), and against most things AVP. His constant opinions about how the AVP tournaments suck are based solely on his like or dislike of the livestream coverage, and the fact that he has never attended a Donald Sun-run AVP tournament makes his opinions, at least in my eyes, somewhat laughable. Here are just a few examples of his exact statements:
"The risk of a male coach sexually abusing players or compromising your program IS SUBSTANTIAL" (emphasis added)
"Karch had zero head coaching experience when he was hired. None. He had never run a program at any level. He was underqualified when he was hired and there were dozens of more qualified American coaches." (during his diatribes that piece of crap men like Todd Rogers and Karch Kiraly should never be hired to coach women's teams)
"p1440's events were also not only better than the Sun AVP's first events, in many ways they were better than AVP events this year. For on-site fans, there were definitely parts that didn't measure up to the AVP, but there were also parts that were comparable or better" (as if he knows the first thing about last year's live p1440 events or the 8 AVP tournaments).
“Watching Allen/Smith play Shaw and Zhang’s corpse is like watching paint dry. Throw Dowdy and Pollock into the mix and you may as well euthanize any remaining fans….before you even get into the abomination that will be some of those AVP Next teams.”
“Because the product stinks and she makes it better” and “that the product stinks is something most fans agree on” (hammering the AVP, its awful players, and his expansive knowledge about fan perceptions of US beach volleyball).
“These players aren’t aspiring pros” (speaking about all AVP Next players).
Again, mean people like Guest2, who simply trash entire groups of players, entire groups of tournaments, and 1/2 of the population, without any regard for the actual impact of their negativity, make me want to puke. But even worse is his idiotic certainty that an April/Alix, Pavan/Humana-Paredes, Brandi Wilkerson, Dahlhausser/Lucena, Taylor/Jake, et al attended AVP tournament like Huntington Beach had a "level of play that was VERY LOW ... compared to an FIVB," without having been there yet again to observe any of the action. The dearth of 4 and 5 star FIVB's this year (which are obviously good quality but also have many teams who might not get out of an AVP Qualifier), when combined with the many 3, 2 and 1 star FIVB's, would seem to suggest that Huntington Beach did not offer a very low level of play, even when compared to the incredibly awesome FIVB. But that's just me - I would rather think the best of many of these struggling, hard-working players, and hope that they can one day improve to the point where they are among the best the US has to offer, instead of simply generalizing that the entire AVP product stinks, calling them names, and questioning why anyone would even want to watch them.
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Post by guest2 on May 17, 2019 3:27:32 GMT -5
downtheline - please, please don't take my disdain for Guest2's constantly negative, anti-AVP rhetoric as a dig (no pun intended!) against anyone else who watches the matches online. "The risk of a male coach sexually abusing players or compromising your program IS SUBSTANTIAL" (emphasis added) "Karch had zero head coaching experience when he was hired. None. He had never run a program at any level. He was underqualified when he was hired and there were dozens of more qualified American coaches." (during his diatribes that piece of crap men like Todd Rogers and Karch Kiraly should never be hired to coach women's teams) The above is the real genesis of your issue with me. Everything you claimed made me anti-AVP a poster you praised (405) has said and has said much more harshly (all the AP criticism, the state of the women's game, and his attacks on qualifier and AVP Next level players are incredibly virulent) Your real issue is my belief that women are being denied opportunities to coach women in favor of men and that men coaching women presents problems that should be taken seriously and aggressively safeguarded against. Lets take an objective look at that. Im a middle aged man. In my lifetime, these are the USA women's head coaches. Arie Selinger, Taras Lyskevich, Mick Haley, Toshi Yoshida, Jenny Lang Ping, Hugh McCutcheon, Karch Kiraly. There may be 1 or 2 years in that period that I haven't covered, but unless I forgot someone, at no point in my entire life, has the USA Women's Volleyball team been coached by an American woman. Less than 10% of the time has there been a female coach. Thats a 40 year plus sample size. Lets move to the second part of the allegation, that having men coaching women creates problems of abuse and sexual relationships. Under the tenure of Selinger there were serious, credible allegations of abusive coaching from players, respected leaders in the VB community like Mary Jo Peppler and many others. We all now recognize that Selinger's tactics were abusive. Under Liskeyvich male coaches (at least one) were sleeping with players (at least one) Under Mick Haley the same thing. Out of the 40 plus years I have been alive, more than half that time, the women's national team was under a coaching regime that permitted or engaged in abuse or permitted and engaged in coaches sleeping with players. How much more evidence do you need? Today men have the majority of the best coaching jobs in womens college beach, a huge percentage of womens coaches are married to players they once coached, the list goes on and on and on. 40+ years, not one American female head coach of the national team. Not 1.
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Post by goldengirlsx3 on May 18, 2019 20:43:51 GMT -5
Miles just put on his IG story that Billy got banned from the AVP. They don’t know why. He may have to find a new partner for NY but hopefully not.
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Post by hustleslowly on May 18, 2019 20:53:19 GMT -5
Miles just put on his IG story that Billy got banned from the AVP. They don’t know why. He may have to find a new partner for NY but hopefully not. Not shocked he wasn't told. Would still like to see him and Evans play AVP though.
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Post by goldengirlsx3 on May 18, 2019 20:58:48 GMT -5
Miles just put on his IG story that Billy got banned from the AVP. They don’t know why. He may have to find a new partner for NY but hopefully not. Not shocked he wasn't told. Would still like to see him and Evans play AVP though. I think Mr. Sun needs to change his decision and forget the ban. Does no one any good except his ego. Hopefully he changes his mind.
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Post by butteryhands on May 18, 2019 23:08:04 GMT -5
Palm might be a good place for Miles to start considering he has very few points.
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Post by 405LAX on May 19, 2019 0:56:22 GMT -5
Palm might be a good place for Miles to start considering he has very few points. Made an entire thread about this very suggestion for Miles. Likely won't get many other offers initially, possibly Avery if he's smart.
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Post by guest2 on May 19, 2019 1:33:04 GMT -5
Palm might be a good place for Miles to start considering he has very few points. Made an entire thread about this very suggestion for Miles. Likely won't get many other offers initially, possibly Avery if he's smart. Ricardo is the best choice for Miles of players likely available. Unless Doherty is willing to make a switch - doubtful - Miles' best option is to stick with Billy and go AVP only, which means Piotr or Ricardo most likely. Both are better than Palm, Ricardo is several tiers above and Piotr is at least one.
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Post by 405LAX on May 19, 2019 12:54:51 GMT -5
Made an entire thread about this very suggestion for Miles. Likely won't get many other offers initially, possibly Avery if he's smart. Ricardo is the best choice for Miles of players likely available. Unless Doherty is willing to make a switch - doubtful - Miles' best option is to stick with Billy and go AVP only, which means Piotr or Ricardo most likely. Both are better than Palm, Ricardo is several tiers above and Piotr is at least one. I'll give Santos the nod but put Palm and Piotr about even. Palm being more mentally steady which gives him advantage.
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