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Post by noblesol on Nov 27, 2019 14:39:31 GMT -5
No to the guard rail. There is no rail. The ball landed on the far back corner of the media table. The ball was playable until it landed on the table, but in this case the player swiped and missed, avoided the media table altogether, and after the swipe and ball landing on the table, her momentum took her further on into the floor cameraman. The ball didn't land on the table. It hit the chair. If you listen to the announcers at the side change, Maclachlin says the ball went over the table. You can see in this screenshot that there is someone sitting next to the media table (you can see their feet). The cameraman and the player are both away from the table to the right. What you can see in your capture is the scorer's table, at the end of which is a media table extension for the announcers and production crew assistant. At the end of that media table is a chair for the floor cameraman which also marks the beginning of the Irvine bench. Tucked in front of the media table and at the end of the scorers table is the towel girl. The ball is coming down in your capture onto the end of the media table and just in front of a LCD display sitting on the table. The player is traveling towards the end of the media table and has just taken her swipe and missed. In the next frame the ball continues on and it hits the table and knocks over the LCD display, while the player does a little move to avoid the table but her momentum carries her into the seated cameraman. I have another angle of it in a capture that along with yours makes it clear. Also, I was seated close to the action and saw the ball land on the end of the media table and knock over the LCD. In their defense, I'm pretty sure K.Leahy had his eyes closed and Chris couldn't see through him to see where the ball hit.
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Post by staticb on Nov 27, 2019 14:43:06 GMT -5
So next year is the year BW becomes an 11 team conference with UCSD and CSUB right?
Yes, they need to do something and not just give everyone 4 more conference games because that will drastically hurt everyone's RPI and undo a lot of the work the top of the conference has done lately.
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Post by medusa on Nov 27, 2019 14:52:29 GMT -5
So next year is the year BW becomes an 11 team conference with UCSD and CSUB right?
Yes, they need to do something and not just give everyone 4 more conference games because that will drastically hurt everyone's RPI and undo a lot of the work the top of the conference has done lately.
I think these two schools will give the teams that are usually at the bottom of BWC a challenge.
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Post by goblin on Nov 27, 2019 14:58:59 GMT -5
The way I see it, UCI got a lot of aloha from our officiating staff...but UCI also caught us at just the right time when we were recovering from yet another key injury (Brooke) and all Robyn's chess pieces were not in place, like moving Noreen over to RS. Okino was still not playing sound defense at this point in the season. Just a perfect storm. If just one of these things went the other way, Wahines walk away with the win. But hey, look where we ended up? We're in a good place.
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Post by Wolfgang on Nov 27, 2019 15:10:06 GMT -5
The way I see it, UCI got a lot of aloha from our officiating staff...but UCI also caught us at just the right time when we were recovering from yet another key injury (Brooke) and all Robyn's chess pieces were not in place, like moving Noreen over to RS. Okino was still not playing sound defense at this point in the season. Just a perfect storm. If just one of these things went the other way, Wahines walk away with the win. But hey, look where we ended up? We're in a good place. Van Sickle got injured in the UCI match. UH was ahead 2-0 when she went down. She came back in the 5th set, but the sucky officials came into play.
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2019 15:15:57 GMT -5
The ball didn't land on the table. It hit the chair. If you listen to the announcers at the side change, Maclachlin says the ball went over the table. You can see in this screenshot that there is someone sitting next to the media table (you can see their feet). The cameraman and the player are both away from the table to the right. What you can see in your capture is the scorer's table, at the end of which is a media table extension for the announcers and production crew assistant. At the end of that media table is a chair for the floor cameraman which also marks the beginning of the Irvine bench. Tucked in front of the media table and at the end of the scorers table is the towel girl. The ball is coming down in your capture onto the end of the media table and just in front of a LCD display sitting on the table. The player is traveling towards the end of the media table and has just taken her swipe and missed. In the next frame the ball continues on and it hits the table and knocks over the LCD display, while the player does a little move to avoid the table but her momentum carries her into the seated cameraman. I have another angle of it in a capture that along with yours makes it clear. Also, I was seated close to the action and saw the ball land on the end of the media table and knock over the LCD. In their defense, I'm pretty sure K.Leahy had his eyes closed and Chris couldn't see through him to see where the ball hit.
Well, I won't continue the back and forth too much longer, but this screenshot from the 5th set before the changeover shows the layout better than the previous one. The cameraman moved into this area at the changeover. There is lots of space between him and the edge of the scorer's table and the play took place in that space. I still contend that the video shows that the ball did not land on the table, but appears to have hit the chair-back. At the very least, this discussion suggests that we should give the refs a little bit of consideration with respect to how difficult it is to make the right call, or to get agreement on what the right call is.
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Post by Victory At Hand on Nov 27, 2019 15:24:24 GMT -5
I don't know who I dislike more....Ashley Hain or Caroline Walters, big whiners, very rude.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Nov 27, 2019 15:36:00 GMT -5
What you can see in your capture is the scorer's table, at the end of which is a media table extension for the announcers and production crew assistant. At the end of that media table is a chair for the floor cameraman which also marks the beginning of the Irvine bench. Tucked in front of the media table and at the end of the scorers table is the towel girl. The ball is coming down in your capture onto the end of the media table and just in front of a LCD display sitting on the table. The player is traveling towards the end of the media table and has just taken her swipe and missed. In the next frame the ball continues on and it hits the table and knocks over the LCD display, while the player does a little move to avoid the table but her momentum carries her into the seated cameraman. I have another angle of it in a capture that along with yours makes it clear. Also, I was seated close to the action and saw the ball land on the end of the media table and knock over the LCD. In their defense, I'm pretty sure K.Leahy had his eyes closed and Chris couldn't see through him to see where the ball hit.
Well, I won't continue the back and forth too much longer, but this screenshot from the 5th set before the changeover shows the layout better than the previous one. The cameraman moved into this area at the changeover. There is lots of space between him and the edge of the scorer's table and the play took place in that space. I still contend that the video shows that the ball did not land on the table, but appears to have hit the chair-back. At the very least, this discussion suggests that we should give the refs a little bit of consideration with respect to how difficult it is to make the right call, or to get agreement on what the right call is. Agreed. I very much thought this call was BS at first, but upon watching it, I agree with the Refs. This was an inference. Now would the ball have been playable? Ehhh maybe not, but it was not a stationary object she ran into. Hain is still not my favorite person, but Regardless what happened, happened. The Wahine tied it up in the fifth and still lost. They learned from this loss and went on to have the most successful season since 2015. Im a happy camper
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Post by noblesol on Nov 27, 2019 17:10:33 GMT -5
What you can see in your capture is the scorer's table, at the end of which is a media table extension for the announcers and production crew assistant. At the end of that media table is a chair for the floor cameraman which also marks the beginning of the Irvine bench. Tucked in front of the media table and at the end of the scorers table is the towel girl. The ball is coming down in your capture onto the end of the media table and just in front of a LCD display sitting on the table. The player is traveling towards the end of the media table and has just taken her swipe and missed. In the next frame the ball continues on and it hits the table and knocks over the LCD display, while the player does a little move to avoid the table but her momentum carries her into the seated cameraman. I have another angle of it in a capture that along with yours makes it clear. Also, I was seated close to the action and saw the ball land on the end of the media table and knock over the LCD. In their defense, I'm pretty sure K.Leahy had his eyes closed and Chris couldn't see through him to see where the ball hit.
Well, I won't continue the back and forth too much longer, but this screenshot from the 5th set before the changeover shows the layout better than the previous one. The cameraman moved into this area at the changeover. There is lots of space between him and the edge of the scorer's table and the play took place in that space. I still contend that the video shows that the ball did not land on the table, but appears to have hit the chair-back. At the very least, this discussion suggests that we should give the refs a little bit of consideration with respect to how difficult it is to make the right call, or to get agreement on what the right call is. Refereeing is hard, yes. We agree. Hain didn't argue the ball out call, she argued interference, and the down ref wasn't sure, consulted with the up ref who wasn't sure, so play over. He couldn't watch the video because it wasn't reviewable. He'd just reviewed the previous play and got it wrong, so he wasn't having a good night with video review anyway. But if anyone is interested, they can watch for themselves. Is a seated sideline cameraman interfering if a player runs into him after making a missed swipe at a ball going out? If it is interference, then should sideline floor cameras be permitted at all? Here's a link to the video: Hawaii-Irvine The play starting at about 1:44:12, and time mark of interest at about 1:44:20 to 1:44:26. Aloha.
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Post by thebeach1 on Nov 27, 2019 20:47:27 GMT -5
So next year is the year BW becomes an 11 team conference with UCSD and CSUB right? Next year, the Big West becomes a 10 member conference with the addition of Cal State Bakersfield. UCSD is in the process of a 4 year “certification,” transitioning from Division 2 to Division 1. UCSD is scheduled to fully compete in the Big West in 2024.
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Post by brooselee on Nov 27, 2019 22:35:15 GMT -5
I feel if the cameraman was stationary and still and the player ran into it, then its not interference. If the cameraman was trying to move out of the way and in the process of moving, he collided with the player, then I can see interference.
When the player was running to the ball trying to retrieve it, she knew she was heading into a bunch of table and chairs so its not like those objects suddenly appeared in front of her and interfered with her play.
Should have been no replay IMHO but what done was done.
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Post by hwnstunner on Nov 28, 2019 2:30:16 GMT -5
Bakersfield adds nothing to the BWC. I'm not sure if there were politics with the other Cal State schools pulling for CSUB, but as an athletic program they are on the same wave length as UC Riverside, which doesn't say much.
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Post by baytree on Nov 28, 2019 2:43:24 GMT -5
Well, I won't continue the back and forth too much longer, but this screenshot from the 5th set before the changeover shows the layout better than the previous one. The cameraman moved into this area at the changeover. There is lots of space between him and the edge of the scorer's table and the play took place in that space. I still contend that the video shows that the ball did not land on the table, but appears to have hit the chair-back. At the very least, this discussion suggests that we should give the refs a little bit of consideration with respect to how difficult it is to make the right call, or to get agreement on what the right call is. Refereeing is hard, yes. We agree. Hain didn't argue the ball out call, she argued interference, and the down ref wasn't sure, consulted with the up ref who wasn't sure, so play over. He couldn't watch the video because it wasn't reviewable. He'd just reviewed the previous play and got it wrong, so he wasn't having a good night with video review anyway. But if anyone is interested, they can watch for themselves. Is a seated sideline cameraman interfering if a player runs into him after making a missed swipe at a ball going out? If it is interference, then should sideline floor cameras be permitted at all? Here's a link to the video: Hawaii-Irvine The play starting at about 1:44:12, and time mark of interest at about 1:44:20 to 1:44:26. Aloha. Your link isn't working for me so I have no opinion on the play. I missed it during the game, too. I had to do something and when I got back, ppl were talking about it but I never saw it.
Here's the rule
4.2.4 Nonplayer Interference When an official (line judge or referee), media equipment or personnel, ball retriever, speed wiper, cheerleader or spectator interferes with a legitimate effort to play the ball in the playing area, the rally is replayed. If substitutes interfere with teammates’ effort to play the ball, the rally is not replayed.
So the Qs are: was the camera person in the playing area and did s/he interfere with a legitimate effort to play the ball.
Ideally you'd never have anyone in the playing area except players and officials but it happens. There was a lot of discussion about it in the Texas v USC game earlier this season and also a short discussion in the Florida - Kentucky (?) game.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Nov 28, 2019 3:37:47 GMT -5
Should have been no replay IMHO but what done was done. Based on your opinion as a Wahine fan — not the rules
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Post by noblesol on Nov 28, 2019 6:31:08 GMT -5
Refereeing is hard, yes. We agree. Hain didn't argue the ball out call, she argued interference, and the down ref wasn't sure, consulted with the up ref who wasn't sure, so play over. He couldn't watch the video because it wasn't reviewable. He'd just reviewed the previous play and got it wrong, so he wasn't having a good night with video review anyway. But if anyone is interested, they can watch for themselves. Is a seated sideline cameraman interfering if a player runs into him after making a missed swipe at a ball going out? If it is interference, then should sideline floor cameras be permitted at all? Here's a link to the video: Hawaii-Irvine The play starting at about 1:44:12, and time mark of interest at about 1:44:20 to 1:44:26. Aloha. Your link isn't working for me so I have no opinion on the play. I missed it during the game, too. I had to do something and when I got back, ppl were talking about it but I never saw it.
Here's the rule
4.2.4 Nonplayer Interference When an official (line judge or referee), media equipment or personnel, ball retriever, speed wiper, cheerleader or spectator interferes with a legitimate effort to play the ball in the playing area, the rally is replayed. If substitutes interfere with teammates’ effort to play the ball, the rally is not replayed.
So the Qs are: was the camera person in the playing area and did s/he interfere with a legitimate effort to play the ball.
Ideally you'd never have anyone in the playing area except players and officials but it happens. There was a lot of discussion about it in the Texas v USC game earlier this season and also a short discussion in the Florida - Kentucky (?) game.
Thank you.
During the after play, Hawai'i Assistant Coach K.Baxter was yelling what looked like "...the ball wasn't playable...". The rule specifies that there be a 'legitimate effort to play the ball 'in' the playing area'. He was making the case the ball wasn't within the playing area when the player made her swipe at it. The player swipe at the ball missed it by several feet as the ball was past the leading edge plane of the media table when she took a swipe that had no chance. When she swiped at it she was a short step away from the media table. After her swipe which missed by a couple of feet, the ball lands on the media table and knocks over a monitor and she continues her momentum into the cameraman seated with a shoulder camera at the end of the media table and just at the start of the Irvine bench. Neither the cameraman nor the media table interfered with her play on the ball prior to her taking a swipe, other than the fact that she was going to carom into one or both of them if she didn't make an adjustment. She was running toward them, a short step from them when she swiped, but the ball had already crossed a vertical plane beyond them and she hadn't slowed herself to avoid hitting one or both of them, and she choose the cameraman.
Others have made that play in that area, gone over the media table, actually laid out on it and brought the ball back in while keeping their feet on the floor just in front of the table. Iosia has done it this season. A legitimate effort to play the ball, but it would not have been interference on the media table equipment if she hadn't of brought it back because the ball was just beyond the playing area, beyond the plane of the media table. It hadn't landed yet but she was reaching for it outside of the playing area and managed to bring it back in.
It seems to me to be one of those contingencies that should be discussed prior to the match with the refs, then with the players and both coaches, to clarify that if they go there, here's the rule. If the ball is beyond the vertical plane of media or scorers table, or the cameraman seated at the end of the media table, you can play it if it hasn't landed and you remain on your feet in the playing area, but it is not interference on the table, the table equipment, or the seated cameraman if your player caroms into them.
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