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Post by donut on May 31, 2019 9:41:25 GMT -5
The thing is, we've never seen Kadie get enough of a shot on the NT to know whether or not she's "NT quality." She definitely had the right skillsets to make an impact on the left-side coming out of college.
She played in Japan, which has often "killed" OHs chances at the NT. It's so strange to me because we're apparently ok with players taking a year off (Murphy, Lowe) or riding the bench/playing poorly for their pro teams (Kingdon, Gibby) but if you go to certain Asian countries to make a living, get out of here.
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Post by volleyguy on May 31, 2019 10:09:28 GMT -5
The thing is, we've never seen Kadie get enough of a shot on the NT to know whether or not she's "NT quality." She definitely had the right skillsets to make an impact on the left-side coming out of college. She played in Japan, which has often "killed" OHs chances at the NT. It's so strange to me because we're apparently ok with players taking a year off (Murphy, Lowe) or riding the bench/playing poorly for their pro teams (Kingdon, Gibby) but if you go to certain Asian countries to make a living, get out of here. This idea that going to Japan kills your National Team chances is ridiculous. Logan Tom, Tayeeba Haneef, and many other international players have played in Japan and significantly improved their skills, in particular, their passing and defense. This was particularly true in the prime of the V league in the 80's, 90's and mid-way through the 2000's. Because of the strict foreigner limits, there was usually only one foreign "star" per team, and the general homogeneity sometimes made the adjustment more difficult for many of them. The advantage of the Japanese league was the constant reps that were a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition, with teams engaging in rigorous two a day practices regularly on top of match days. The draw-back for some players was the insistence or persistence of a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits all approach that de-emphasized a particular's player's strengths or attributes (for example, in defensive positioning). It is true that in the past few years, the overall quality of the V league has decreased. This is in part due to a decrease in the financial stability and commitment in the league, as well as some philosophical re-orientation in the Japanese Federation and the League with regards to training and team management. There also seems to be a serious dearth of any height too, for some reason. but the premise that playing in Japan, particularly for a limited time-frame, kills your career has no basis. The issue is how players incorporate that training opportunity. The bottom line is that there are few, if any, better places than Japan to go if you want to learn how to pass and improve your defense. As far as Rolfzen, I'm not sure she had the right skill sets to ever make an impact, particularly if you count attitude as a skillset. She also had some technical issues with her armswing--a tendency to hit over the top of her head with elbow bent (and something the Foecke also sometimes does), which reduced her attack effectiveness.
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Post by jwvolley on May 31, 2019 10:11:23 GMT -5
The thing is, we've never seen Kadie get enough of a shot on the NT to know whether or not she's "NT quality." She definitely had the right skillsets to make an impact on the left-side coming out of college. She played in Japan, which has often "killed" OHs chances at the NT. It's so strange to me because we're apparently ok with players taking a year off (Murphy, Lowe) or riding the bench/playing poorly for their pro teams (Kingdon, Gibby) but if you go to certain Asian countries to make a living, get out of here. That friendship between her and Khat Bell should give hope to us Nebraska fans and our Texas counterparts 😂
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 10:32:19 GMT -5
Kadie struggled to receive in Japan and she was not the terminator like Japanese teams need the foreigners to be.
She also played in Germany and China and showed absolutely nothing.
Wilhite did not show anything in Italy and Germany either, but Karch managed to get a Brazilian team to sign her for next season, and apparently Kadie is replacing Wilhite in Germany.
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Post by vollem on May 31, 2019 10:52:42 GMT -5
The thing is, we've never seen Kadie get enough of a shot on the NT to know whether or not she's "NT quality." She definitely had the right skillsets to make an impact on the left-side coming out of college. She played in Japan, which has often "killed" OHs chances at the NT. It's so strange to me because we're apparently ok with players taking a year off (Murphy, Lowe) or riding the bench/playing poorly for their pro teams (Kingdon, Gibby) but if you go to certain Asian countries to make a living, get out of here. This idea that going to Japan kills your National Team chances is ridiculous. Logan Tom, Tayeeba Haneef, and many other international players have played in Japan and significantly improved their skills, in particular, their passing and defense. This was particularly true in the prime of the V league in the 80's, 90's and mid-way through the 2000's. Because of the strict foreigner limits, there was usually only one foreign "star" per team, and the general homogeneity sometimes made the adjustment more difficult for many of them. The advantage of the Japanese league was the constant reps that were a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition, with teams engaging in rigorous two a day practices regularly on top of match days. The draw-back for some players was the insistence or persistence of a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits all approach that de-emphasized a particular's player's strengths or attributes (for example, in defensive positioning). It is true that in the past few years, the overall quality of the V league has decreased. This is in part due to a decrease in the financial stability and commitment in the league, as well as some philosophical re-orientation in the Japanese Federation and the League with regards to training and team management. There also seems to be a serious dearth of any height too, for some reason. but the premise that playing in Japan, particularly for a limited time-frame, kills your career has no basis. The issue is how players incorporate that training opportunity. The bottom line is that there are few, if any, better places than Japan to go if you want to learn how to pass and improve your defense. As far as Rolfzen, I'm not sure she had the right skill sets to ever make an impact, particularly if you count attitude as a skillset. She also had some technical issues with her armswing--a tendency to hit over the top of her head with elbow bent (and something the Foecke also sometimes does), which reduced her attack effectiveness. I hope you're right about playing in Japan. What about China? Is this "playing in an Asian league kills NT chances" an American sentiment? This isn't the first time I've seen it pop up, particularly for Lee. I mean, didn't Foluke play in Japan? On paper, I would think the Asian leagues are where you'd go if you want to improve your defense. Since they don't have the towering size of USA/Brazil/Turkey/Italy, those women are FAST and make it look easy. Honestly that's why I admire a lot of the Asian teams, particularly Thailand (many players sub-6'). Thailand's fast and creative offense combined with Japan's defense would be money for the US. Of course, having a Zhu Ting would be nice too donut not shading your statement at all. I get that it's just something you've also noticed. I would think taking a year off (another example: JWO) would be detrimental, period.
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Post by donut on May 31, 2019 11:09:12 GMT -5
The thing is, we've never seen Kadie get enough of a shot on the NT to know whether or not she's "NT quality." She definitely had the right skillsets to make an impact on the left-side coming out of college. She played in Japan, which has often "killed" OHs chances at the NT. It's so strange to me because we're apparently ok with players taking a year off (Murphy, Lowe) or riding the bench/playing poorly for their pro teams (Kingdon, Gibby) but if you go to certain Asian countries to make a living, get out of here. This idea that going to Japan kills your National Team chances is ridiculous. Logan Tom, Tayeeba Haneef, and many other international players have played in Japan and significantly improved their skills, in particular, their passing and defense. This was particularly true in the prime of the V league in the 80's, 90's and mid-way through the 2000's. Because of the strict foreigner limits, there was usually only one foreign "star" per team, and the general homogeneity sometimes made the adjustment more difficult for many of them. The advantage of the Japanese league was the constant reps that were a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition, with teams engaging in rigorous two a day practices regularly on top of match days. The draw-back for some players was the insistence or persistence of a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits all approach that de-emphasized a particular's player's strengths or attributes (for example, in defensive positioning). It is true that in the past few years, the overall quality of the V league has decreased. This is in part due to a decrease in the financial stability and commitment in the league, as well as some philosophical re-orientation in the Japanese Federation and the League with regards to training and team management. There also seems to be a serious dearth of any height too, for some reason. but the premise that playing in Japan, particularly for a limited time-frame, kills your career has no basis. The issue is how players incorporate that training opportunity. The bottom line is that there are few, if any, better places than Japan to go if you want to learn how to pass and improve your defense. As far as Rolfzen, I'm not sure she had the right skill sets to ever make an impact, particularly if you count attitude as a skillset. She also had some technical issues with her armswing--a tendency to hit over the top of her head with elbow bent (and something the Foecke also sometimes does), which reduced her attack effectiveness. I should have clarified. I don't personally believe that playing in Japan or Korea should kill a player's opportunities with the National Team. I also did not mean to insult the Japanese national team training culture - I completely agree about the advantages you listed above. However, there is a perception, at least on Volleytalk, that OHs who are on the cusp of making the NT (usually straight out of college) who go to play in Japan or Korea, aren't making a good choice for their NT career. Due to their foreigner rules, many of the US players who go over there are big bangers (harder to find in Southeast Asian countries amongst native players), and many of them get slotted to play OPP, or play OH but with limited passing responsibilities. Additionally, many of them get 60+ sets per game and put up massive numbers, because the blocks are smaller. This happened to Adora Anae this season in Korea, and I bet it happens to Simone Lee in Japan next season. I obviously can't claim causality, but it seems that very often NCAA elite OHs who have the "but can she pass at the next level" questions buzzing around them, go to play in Japan or Korea and then fall off the NT radar, because they struggle passing and are immediately slotted into a non-passing role. That may not have been how it was when Logan or Tayeeba were there, but it seems to be the case now. Going to ignore the "attitude" comment (Karch, is that you?) but how many players come out of the NCAA with perfect technique? She was a terminal six-rotation hitter, who was a primary passer for multiple years at 6'3"-6'4". That's quite rare. I'm not saying she's going to be an Olympic starter, but I think she deserves more than making preliminary rosters to be cut for Kingdon, who has already had multiple chances to prove herself, and has never made the jump from the B team to the A team.
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Post by donut on May 31, 2019 11:28:55 GMT -5
Kadie struggled to receive in Japan and she was not the terminator like Japanese teams need the foreigners to be. Why do you continue to spread lies about American players? Kadie was a primary passer for Toray and hit .330. Same season, Brankica Mikhaylovich was not a primary passer for JT Marvelous and hit .348. Neriman Ozsoy was not a primary passer for Toyota, and hit .352. Considering she had passing responsibilities and the other two didn't, her numbers were good.
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Post by volleyguy on May 31, 2019 11:36:28 GMT -5
This idea that going to Japan kills your National Team chances is ridiculous. Logan Tom, Tayeeba Haneef, and many other international players have played in Japan and significantly improved their skills, in particular, their passing and defense. This was particularly true in the prime of the V league in the 80's, 90's and mid-way through the 2000's. Because of the strict foreigner limits, there was usually only one foreign "star" per team, and the general homogeneity sometimes made the adjustment more difficult for many of them. The advantage of the Japanese league was the constant reps that were a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition, with teams engaging in rigorous two a day practices regularly on top of match days. The draw-back for some players was the insistence or persistence of a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits all approach that de-emphasized a particular's player's strengths or attributes (for example, in defensive positioning). It is true that in the past few years, the overall quality of the V league has decreased. This is in part due to a decrease in the financial stability and commitment in the league, as well as some philosophical re-orientation in the Japanese Federation and the League with regards to training and team management. There also seems to be a serious dearth of any height too, for some reason. but the premise that playing in Japan, particularly for a limited time-frame, kills your career has no basis. The issue is how players incorporate that training opportunity. The bottom line is that there are few, if any, better places than Japan to go if you want to learn how to pass and improve your defense. As far as Rolfzen, I'm not sure she had the right skill sets to ever make an impact, particularly if you count attitude as a skillset. She also had some technical issues with her armswing--a tendency to hit over the top of her head with elbow bent (and something the Foecke also sometimes does), which reduced her attack effectiveness. I should have clarified. I don't personally believe that playing in Japan or Korea should kill a player's opportunities with the National Team. I also did not mean to insult the Japanese national team training culture - I completely agree about the advantages you listed above. However, there is a perception, at least on Volleytalk, that OHs who are on the cusp of making the NT (usually straight out of college) who go to play in Japan or Korea, aren't making a good choice for their NT career. Due to their foreigner rules, many of the US players who go over there are big bangers (harder to find in Southeast Asian countries amongst native players), and many of them get slotted to play OPP, or play OH but with limited passing responsibilities. Additionally, many of them get 60+ sets per game and put up massive numbers, because the blocks are smaller. This happened to Adora Anae this season in Korea, and I bet it happens to Simone Lee in Japan next season. I obviously can't claim causality, but it seems that very often NCAA elite OHs who have the "but can she pass at the next level" questions buzzing around them, go to play in Japan or Korea and then fall off the NT radar, because they struggle passing and are immediately slotted into a non-passing role. That may not have been how it was when Logan or Tayeeba were there, but it seems to be the case now. Going to ignore the "attitude" comment (Karch, is that you?) but how many players come out of the NCAA with perfect technique? She was a terminal six-rotation hitter, who was a primary passer for multiple years at 6'3"-6'4". That's quite rare. I'm not saying she's going to be an Olympic starter, but I think she deserves more than making preliminary rosters to be cut for Kingdon, who has already had multiple chances to prove herself, and has never made the jump from the B team to the A team. My point is that Rolfzen not making a greater impact on the National Team has nothing to do with playing in Japan, regardless of what VT says (my comment about attitude wasn't a throw-away line, and it had nothing to do with her right to individuality as a person). Logan Tom was a much better passer in College than Rolfzen, and she didn't hit her stride passing-wise until 3 or 4 years in her pro career. But she definitely improved and refined her passing since her college days (of course, her early NT training while in college was influenced by the japanese style as well). My other point had to do with the issue of reps, which as I said, is a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition. Even those players who might get slotted as limited passing attackers get the opportunity for many, many reps in passing. The other issue is the differences in training of passing techniques. The current USA style, which has trickled down to the NCAA, relies much more on upper-body strength to manage the platform as opposed to the traditional technique still in play in Japan and other places. Adjusting between these styles, both passing and general offense, is a consideration in determining and understanding how USA players develop. Transitioning between styles is obviously a difficult thing for many players to manage. Someone like Anae was going to have a hard time making an impact on the NT regardless of where she played professionally. Nicole Fawcett was a bit too one-dimensional as a hitter against the best international block and players. In Korea, despite her success there, the need to adjust was not as apparent, and as a result, she didn't really improve in the areas she needed improvement. Lee is a more dynamic attacker than either of those, and it's clear that her passing is, relatively, her glaring deficiency. Going to where she can best improve that deficiency seems very logical to me. Again, where else is there a better opportunity to improve her passing?
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Post by ironhammer on May 31, 2019 12:21:19 GMT -5
This idea that going to Japan kills your National Team chances is ridiculous. Logan Tom, Tayeeba Haneef, and many other international players have played in Japan and significantly improved their skills, in particular, their passing and defense. This was particularly true in the prime of the V league in the 80's, 90's and mid-way through the 2000's. Because of the strict foreigner limits, there was usually only one foreign "star" per team, and the general homogeneity sometimes made the adjustment more difficult for many of them. The advantage of the Japanese league was the constant reps that were a hallmark of the Japanese volleyball tradition, with teams engaging in rigorous two a day practices regularly on top of match days. The draw-back for some players was the insistence or persistence of a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits all approach that de-emphasized a particular's player's strengths or attributes (for example, in defensive positioning). It is true that in the past few years, the overall quality of the V league has decreased. This is in part due to a decrease in the financial stability and commitment in the league, as well as some philosophical re-orientation in the Japanese Federation and the League with regards to training and team management. There also seems to be a serious dearth of any height too, for some reason. but the premise that playing in Japan, particularly for a limited time-frame, kills your career has no basis. The issue is how players incorporate that training opportunity. The bottom line is that there are few, if any, better places than Japan to go if you want to learn how to pass and improve your defense. As far as Rolfzen, I'm not sure she had the right skill sets to ever make an impact, particularly if you count attitude as a skillset. She also had some technical issues with her armswing--a tendency to hit over the top of her head with elbow bent (and something the Foecke also sometimes does), which reduced her attack effectiveness. I hope you're right about playing in Japan. What about China? Is this "playing in an Asian league kills NT chances" an American sentiment? This isn't the first time I've seen it pop up, particularly for Lee. I mean, didn't Foluke play in Japan? On paper, I would think the Asian leagues are where you'd go if you want to improve your defense. Since they don't have the towering size of USA/Brazil/Turkey/Italy, those women are FAST and make it look easy. Honestly that's why I admire a lot of the Asian teams, particularly Thailand (many players sub-6'). Thailand's fast and creative offense combined with Japan's defense would be money for the US. Of course, having a Zhu Ting would be nice too donut not shading your statement at all. I get that it's just something you've also noticed. I would think taking a year off (another example: JWO) would be detrimental, period. Asian Leagues aren't all the same. Just as not all European leagues are all the same. Asia is big place after all. Since you mentioned the Chinese league, I can tell you they do have very tall players and their level is quite decent. Zhu Ting after all got her in start in the Chinese league before moving to Turkey (and now coming back to China). It is not at the very top level like Turkey or Italy, but maybe a rung below that. A middle-level league. As for specific players, Dixon played for Beijing and she helped the team win their first championship just last season. And she has been a member of the USNT for quite a while now, so that should answer your question.
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Post by nothingbutcorn on May 31, 2019 12:43:08 GMT -5
Which proves the point that one, you need to get into the right league, and two onto a team where you are allowed to grow. Annie Drews is a great example.
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Post by vollem on May 31, 2019 12:44:27 GMT -5
Asian Leagues aren't all the same. Just as not all European leagues are all the same. Asia is big place after all. Since you mentioned the Chinese league, I can tell you they do have very tall players and their level is quite decent. Zhu Ting after all got her in start in the Chinese league before moving to Turkey (and now coming back to China). It is not at the very top level like Turkey or Italy, but maybe a rung below that. A middle-level league. As for specific players, Dixon played for Beijing and she helped the team win their first championship just last season. And she has been a member of the USNT for quite a while now, so that should answer your question. Yes, China, as far as average height goes, wins the battle of the talls. Zhu is what, 6'5"? Did not know that about Dixon, but good for her and Beijing. And yes, Asia is large (I am, after all, of Asian descent ). Thailand's volleyball scene is growing (albeit starting with *that* match back in 2016). Same goes for the Philippines, though their height is much smaller than Thailand/Japan/Korea. Lohman, Schoenlein, Mau, and YBG are helping cultivate a bigger volleyball culture over there, though it will take at least a decade for it to make that international leap. I've veered way off the VNL topic. If Lee goes to Japan, I think she'll get the passing reps all the VTers are saying she could use. Based on all the OH performances (not counting Foecke since she's gotten married and has other things to deal with at the time being), learning from the defense playbook could benefit them all. Kelsey can't keep switching roles, JWO kinda fell off the radar (I think?), and Lake/Hentz/White are still students. Unrelated question: where did some projected NT members go? Vansant left after a short stint, and wasn't Knop supposed to be in the mix for L? There isn't much of a baton-pass for the L jersey, unlike M1/2.
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Post by vollem on May 31, 2019 12:45:50 GMT -5
Which proves the point that one, you need to get into the right league, and two onto a team where you are allowed to grow. Annie Drews is a great example. Loving her growth! Kinda want Wilhite and Lee to prove the people wrong (on the passing front). Could the 15 subs in NCAA be affecting the defense of the 6-ro outside (and for that matter, OPP)? Edit: The other thing I noticed about Drews is she's playing like she's having fun. Not timid, doesn't get frustrated with herself. Last year's VNL was a totally different Drews!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 13:12:57 GMT -5
Not in the least. I also won't be mad when she cannot find a team on which to play next year because she can't pass or hit. Wait, maybe she'll be on a cute German team like those twins. Really? Is this necessary?? Ah, wasn't it just a couple days ago that SportyBucky called me the dramatic one for calling this out? OH, and also said that he doesn't rag on them? Looks like it was.... I don't think anyone suggested you should use that as the only data point in your evaluation. Your constant %*$#ting on Sarah is annoying. I'm not saying you're wrong, but why is every other post in every single match thread a post by SportyBucky talking about how %*$#ty Wilhite (or Tapp) is? I've redrafted this multiple times to be crystal clear. Glad you support your former players, but they're not NT good. Sorry. I've actually not ragged on them constantly, but bless your heart for saying so. Glad you're paying really close attention to this lesson, so continue to listen up. To play OH internally, you have to pass. Wilhite, as of now, cannot. To play MB you have to be a superior blocker, or be a good blocker and be unstoppable offensively. Tapp is not either.
As balance, I have commented positively on Thompson, Rettke, Poulter, Ogbagu, & Washington. I have also said Kingdon is not the second coming of Logan Tom. I'm not just picking on the pretty, ineffective girls who have Karch's heart.
LOL. Anyway I hope therapy is going well, and I'm sorry for whatever a gopher ever did to you to cause such trauma in your life.
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Post by c4ndlelight on May 31, 2019 13:30:05 GMT -5
LOL. Anyway I hope therapy is going well, and I'm sorry for whatever a gopher ever did to you to cause such trauma in your life. Maybe he takes lawn care very seriously?
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BadtzMaru
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Post by BadtzMaru on May 31, 2019 13:34:01 GMT -5
The other issue is the differences in training of passing techniques. The current USA style, which has trickled down to the NCAA, relies much more on upper-body strength to manage the platform as opposed to the traditional technique still in play in Japan and other places. Adjusting between these styles, both passing and general offense, is a consideration in determining and understanding how USA players develop. Transitioning between styles is obviously a difficult thing for many players to manage. Can you expand on this? I'm fascinated.
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