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Post by n00b on Mar 6, 2024 7:30:04 GMT -5
Sure but they could (I think, you would know better) just recruit a whole team of different players. Or perhaps contract to a different employee-run firm of players that wasn’t unionized. No, they can't. "Recruiting a whole team of different players" is exactly what they can't do. That would be replacing the current players because they unionized, which is illegal. If they did try to do that, they would get sued. And they would lose. Another thing that unions do is subvert the tactic where the deep-pockets employer simply risks going to court because the employees don't have the money to pay the lawyers, even if they have a winning case. But SEIU (and other unions) have their own in-house lawyers as well as the resources to pay for other lawyers, so they are not afraid to go to court. Which means not only would Dartmouth spend a lot of money in legal fees, but they would likely lose, and be forced to pay back the union's legal fees as well. What they *could* do is simply disband the program completely. Get rid of MBB. Well they don’t have a salary right now. So they could just add 12 new players without firing the existing ones and have a roster of 24. Then it’s the coaches discretion of who plays.
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Post by InTheKnow on Mar 6, 2024 8:13:17 GMT -5
They have no idea how bad this would be for players. The support they get with the traditional model, that is majorly taken for granted, will stop and it won’t be good for a majority of the players. The only hope for college sports is actually Ted Cruz. He can get congress to step in and save the ncaa, if he gets enough support. If he can’t, we will see a ahit show that will weaken college sports to the dark ages.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 6, 2024 8:37:16 GMT -5
They have no idea how bad this would be for players. The support they get with the traditional model, that is majorly taken for granted, will stop and it won’t be good for a majority of the players. I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. If you're right that the only hope for college sports is the most hated man in the United States Senate, sounds like there's no hope.
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Post by vbnerd on Mar 6, 2024 12:35:39 GMT -5
What they *could* do is simply disband the program completely. Get rid of MBB. A lot of articles and experts are saying they can't single out men's basketball. They'd need to cut/deprioritize the athletic department. IDK where that line in the sand actually is but I'm sure we'll find out. Another part of this is that 4 players are supposedly internationals on Student Visas and cannot work. The Swedish kid is actually one of the main proponents of this - but they cannot work on a student visa so could they play? Is it an unpaid internship? Can they recruit all foreign players going forward?
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 12:41:35 GMT -5
What they *could* do is simply disband the program completely. Get rid of MBB. A lot of articles and experts are saying they can't single out men's basketball. They'd need to cut/deprioritize the athletic department. IDK where that line in the sand actually is but I'm sure we'll find out. Another part of this is that 4 players are supposedly internationals on Student Visas and cannot work. The Swedish kid is actually one of the main proponents of this - but they cannot work on a student visa so could they play? Is it an unpaid internship? Can they recruit all foreign players going forward? International students on a student visa can't be employees of the University (or anyone else), however. So they can't benefit from this decision. Also, it makes sense that if the MBB team members are employees, then so must the members of the WBB team and any other athletic team (that doesn't mean that they have to actually vote to join a union, however.) And therein lies the complications that arise from such a decision.
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Post by vbnerd on Mar 6, 2024 13:05:48 GMT -5
A lot of articles and experts are saying they can't single out men's basketball. They'd need to cut/deprioritize the athletic department. IDK where that line in the sand actually is but I'm sure we'll find out. Another part of this is that 4 players are supposedly internationals on Student Visas and cannot work. The Swedish kid is actually one of the main proponents of this - but they cannot work on a student visa so could they play? Is it an unpaid internship? Can they recruit all foreign players going forward? International students on a student visa can't be employees of the University (or anyone else), however. So they can't benefit from this decision. Also, it makes sense that if the MBB team members are employees, then so must the members of the WBB team and any other athletic team (that doesn't mean that they have to actually vote to join a union, however.) And therein lies the complications that arise from such a decision. This was the argument with Northwestern football - if Northwestern was to pay their players, while the decision didn't apply to the public members of the Big 10 many would be expected to follow suit to stay competitive. It never got that far, so we don't know how it would have played out. It seems like it would apply to every sport at every private school that doesn't de-escalate their athletic department to avoid what NLRB identifies as the triggers - whether they stand by the Dartmouth decision or if the national committee writes it's own decision and guidance going forward. If the P5 are going to end up paying players anyway, I'm not sure how much this matters to them (I'm sure it matters in a different way), but for the D1s that aren't willing to go that far, this would seem to be very significant if it goes forward. I might see the IVY League hold hands with the NESCAC and maybe Patriot League and do their own thing in a regional and academic focused way to avoid NCAA or NLRB interference. Ivy League and NESCAC don't play in their respective NCAA football championships anyway.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 6, 2024 13:10:00 GMT -5
They have no idea how bad this would be for players. The support they get with the traditional model, that is majorly taken for granted, will stop and it won’t be good for a majority of the players. I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. Like I said before, a lot of people don't understand how unions work. Obviously the union is not going to prohibit the university from giving the players non-monetary support. In fact, if they can establish that it is the de-facto current "working environment", then they can require it to continue even if it is not spelled out in any contract.
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 13:25:36 GMT -5
I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. Like I said before, a lot of people don't understand how unions work. Obviously the union is not going to prohibit the university from giving the players non-monetary support. In fact, if they can establish that it is the de-facto current "working environment", then they can require it to continue even if it is not spelled out in any contract. A union, particularly a new one, can't require the current or existing working conditions to continue, but they can negotiate a bargaining agreement that does so. They can also file an unfair labor practice complaint, perhaps alleging retaliation or bad faith bargaining, if they are unsuccessful in doing so.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 6, 2024 13:28:25 GMT -5
Like I said before, a lot of people don't understand how unions work. Obviously the union is not going to prohibit the university from giving the players non-monetary support. In fact, if they can establish that it is the de-facto current "working environment", then they can require it to continue even if it is not spelled out in any contract. A union, particularly a new one, can't require the current or existing working conditions to continue, but they can negotiate a bargaining agreement that does so. They can also file an unfair labor practice complaint, perhaps alleging retaliation or bad faith bargaining, if they are unsuccessful in doing so. Hmm. OK. I've never been in a brand new union. In my experience, once you have a contract, the union will allow management to add benefits and change the working conditions for the better, but won't allow changes that make them worse. Meanwhile the company will often refuse to make any changes that make things better, because they save those up for the contract renewal negotiation, hoping to trade them against other things.
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 13:50:59 GMT -5
A union, particularly a new one, can't require the current or existing working conditions to continue, but they can negotiate a bargaining agreement that does so. They can also file an unfair labor practice complaint, perhaps alleging retaliation or bad faith bargaining, if they are unsuccessful in doing so. Hmm. OK. I've never been in a brand new union. In my experience, once you have a contract, the union will allow management to add benefits and change the working conditions for the better, but won't allow changes that make them worse. Meanwhile the company will often refuse to make any changes that make things better, because they save those up for the contract renewal negotiation, hoping to trade them against other things. I think this is all generally true. There is a principle of "past practices" where departures from previous labor rules and conditions that aren't specifically mandated by a CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement, or more commonly known as a labor contract) can be challenged and must be justified by management, but when a non-union environment becomes union, everything is sort of up for grabs because the negotiated CBA will define/mandate the "new" working conditions going forward. In existing union environments, subsequent CBA negotiations will generally start from the existing/expiring CBA as a template.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 6, 2024 13:52:36 GMT -5
If the P5 are going to end up paying players anyway Based on the conversations I've had with people inside higher education and college athletics, that's exactly where this all is going. Whether that happens within the structure of the NCAA or some other organization instead is less clear.
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 13:57:55 GMT -5
If the P5 are going to end up paying players anyway Based on the conversations I've had with people inside higher education and college athletics, that's exactly where this all is going. Whether that happens within the structure of the NCAA or some other organization instead is less clear. I agree, but I think a lot of it is herd mentality.
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Post by n00b on Mar 6, 2024 15:06:23 GMT -5
I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. Like I said before, a lot of people don't understand how unions work. Obviously the union is not going to prohibit the university from giving the players non-monetary support. In fact, if they can establish that it is the de-facto current "working environment", then they can require it to continue even if it is not spelled out in any contract. Sure. But the players are asking for athletic scholarships. Dartmouth's website lists the cost of attendance at $87,000, times 13 athlete is $1.1 million. I would assume that if a negotiation happens, part of that would be "if we need to allocate our resources towards scholarship dollars, we have considerably less money to spend on x, y, and z. So what are you willing to give up?"
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 15:07:42 GMT -5
Like I said before, a lot of people don't understand how unions work. Obviously the union is not going to prohibit the university from giving the players non-monetary support. In fact, if they can establish that it is the de-facto current "working environment", then they can require it to continue even if it is not spelled out in any contract. Sure. But the players are asking for athletic scholarships. Dartmouth's website lists the cost of attendance at $87,000, times 13 athlete is $1.1 million. I would assume that if a negotiation happens, part of that would be "if we need to allocate our resources towards scholarship dollars, we have considerably less money to spend on x, y, and z. So what are you willing to give up?" The Ivy League, which includes Dartmouth, doesn't award athletic scholarships.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 6, 2024 15:16:45 GMT -5
[But the players are asking for athletic scholarships. Where are you reading that?
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