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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 7, 2024 9:10:06 GMT -5
I didn't realize professional teams don't have any of those things. Maybe they will be! I love college sports and worked in them for a long time (and still do), but nothing says they have to exist. Dartmouth is a weird first school to undergo this process because it's nonscholarship and relatively low in revenue compared to many other schools, but the revenue isn't zero. If paying 15 basketball players $20/hour for a 20 hour work week breaks Dartmouth, then maybe they need to revisit their priorities because employee status of some sort is almost certainly coming to college athletics. “Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Being allowed to pay athletes because the athletic department has more money than they know what to do with is very different from being required to pay athletes in a department that loses money. Businesses that lose money pay people all the time. You pay people because that is what is required to procure their labor in the market. And I highly doubt Dartmouth University loses money.
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Post by tablealgebra on Mar 7, 2024 10:05:36 GMT -5
“Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Being allowed to pay athletes because the athletic department has more money than they know what to do with is very different from being required to pay athletes in a department that loses money. Businesses that lose money pay people all the time. You pay people because that is what is required to procure their labor in the market. And I highly doubt Dartmouth University loses money. On the year-to-year level they probably do lose money. But sports as they exist at Dartmouth are part of the "Ivy Mystique" which helps out donations, part of the total package of why they were able to double their endowment in the last 11 years. It's kind of like how pro teams that don't make any money year to year double their value over a 15 year period. Heck, there are probably National Women's Soccer League teams that have NEVER made money on a year to year basis which are now worth 5-10 times what they were originally worth. tl;dr it's monetarily worth it in the big picture for Dartmouth to have basketball, even though it probably doesn't make a profit.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 7, 2024 10:08:39 GMT -5
tl;dr it's monetarily worth it in the big picture for Dartmouth to have basketball, even though it probably doesn't make a profit. 100%.
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Post by vbnerd on Mar 7, 2024 10:27:05 GMT -5
Just a guess, but is men's basketball a core sport for the Ivy League? I mean could you be a member of the Ivy League if you didn't play basketball, football, etc?
And I think we can all agree being in the Ivy League makes an outsized impact on the perception of the school. Let's be honest, Union College left the Ivy League and nobody thinks of them in the same category as even Columbia or Brown.
If the Ivy League label is worth X and the price to enjoy that label is men's basketball, then they'll have men's basketball. But will the other members of the Ivy League allow paid professionals to play in their league? Or will they pay their athletes too? It seems like once you pay you cannot collude to set limits so they would have to know it's opening pandoras box.
My guess is the Ivy Leagues will go back to their emphasis on academics and reduce the demands of their athletes to meet a non-employee/ extracurricular model.
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Post by dizzydean on Mar 7, 2024 10:29:48 GMT -5
“Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Being allowed to pay athletes because the athletic department has more money than they know what to do with is very different from being required to pay athletes in a department that loses money. Businesses that lose money pay people all the time. You pay people because that is what is required to procure their labor in the market. And I highly doubt Dartmouth University loses money. Dartmouth University surely doesn't, but the athletic department probably does.
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Post by silverchloride on Mar 7, 2024 13:37:33 GMT -5
Ivy league does not have Athletic scholarships (already established). You have to meet the admission requirements, no matter how "gifted and talented" an athlete is (SA). Once you are accepted you are under no obligation to play a sport. Tuition will be the same whether you play a sport voluntarily, or not. In this case, how would volunteering to play basketball for Dartmouth benefit from unionization?
My family would benefit from Sports scholarships at the Ivy level, is that one of the collective bargaining points?
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Post by tablealgebra on Mar 7, 2024 17:07:59 GMT -5
Just a guess, but is men's basketball a core sport for the Ivy League? I mean could you be a member of the Ivy League if you didn't play basketball, football, etc? And I think we can all agree being in the Ivy League makes an outsized impact on the perception of the school. Let's be honest, Union College left the Ivy League and nobody thinks of them in the same category as even Columbia or Brown. If the Ivy League label is worth X and the price to enjoy that label is men's basketball, then they'll have men's basketball. But will the other members of the Ivy League allow paid professionals to play in their league? Or will they pay their athletes too? It seems like once you pay you cannot collude to set limits so they would have to know it's opening pandoras box. My guess is the Ivy Leagues will go back to their emphasis on academics and reduce the demands of their athletes to meet a non-employee/ extracurricular model. Interesting - also, really appreciate the update in the OP, makes much more interesting and salient arguments instead of the same old tired "pro-union, anti-union" posturing. Sounds like the Dartmouth lawyers got outlawyered pretty hard. I think that a lot of things will simply have to be presented as non-mandatory. I remember a fellow student who was a football player saying about non-mandatory lifting sessions "they're mandatory if you want to play" (and he had no problem with that). Right now there's a 20 hour per week practice limit, and if you figure a 20 week season at $20 a hour to make the numbers as easy as possible, that's $8000/year. (the offseason would simply have to become all non-mandated hours) My guess is that this is the kind of compensation that these guys would be looking for. Personally, as someone who is pro-union I would be very disappointed if this simply became about dollars and cents, which would screw low revenue and D2/D3 sports, and mess with the Ivy's no schollie model, without making significant real change in high-level college sports. And while Dartmouth may be able to spend $120,000 on their basketball players every year, a lot of non-scholarship granting colleges clearly will not be able to do this (scholarship granting institutions would be much less affected). To me, I would want a college sports union to be about working conditions and also collectively bargaining to bring NIL into a more controlled space. And yes, the easiest solution for the Ivy's would be to simply start granting scholarships.
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Post by vbnerd on Mar 7, 2024 20:55:21 GMT -5
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Post by mplsgopher on Apr 12, 2024 12:05:33 GMT -5
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