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Post by vbnerd on Mar 6, 2024 20:18:22 GMT -5
This may sound like a dumb question but what bargaining power does Dartmouth men's basketball have anyway? They collectively go to the university and say we won't play unless you pay us, the university then says, ok, we won't field a team this year. What's the big deal? The team hasn't had a winning record in forever, and given the paltry attendance, I'm sure the University pays more money to operate the team than it brings in from ticket sales. I can't imagine fielding a losing team produces enough value-added good will for the university that it actually makes sense to cave into the demands of a handful of players - why not just NOT field a team? Apparently they cannot do anything to punish these "workers" for exercising their right to organize. They could cut or reduce the athletic department as a whole.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 6, 2024 20:21:05 GMT -5
This may sound like a dumb question but what bargaining power does Dartmouth men's basketball have anyway? They collectively go to the university and say we won't play unless you pay us, the university then says, ok, we won't field a team this year. What's the big deal? The team hasn't had a winning record in forever, and given the paltry attendance, I'm sure the University pays more money to operate the team than it brings in from ticket sales. I can't imagine fielding a losing team produces enough value-added good will for the university that it actually makes sense to cave into the demands of a handful of players - why not just NOT field a team? Why do they have a team right now? Most schools don't make money directly from most sports. They have the sports mainly for the entertainment and bonding of the students (especially the athletes), and to help build bonds with the alumni. The big money is not in ticket sales or even TV contracts, but in alumni donations (both before and after the alumni die).
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Post by n00b on Mar 6, 2024 20:21:58 GMT -5
Union busting and hiring scabs is certainly a choice Dartmouth could make. I wouldn't entirely put it past them to do it out of panic, but hopefully someone with some PR sense would shut that down before it got out of a brainstorming session. How long would Dartmouth have to go with no basketball team before new players wouldn't be considered scabs? Because there is no financial reason for Dartmouth to really need to get striking basketball players back on board.
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 6, 2024 20:23:12 GMT -5
This may sound like a dumb question but what bargaining power does Dartmouth men's basketball have anyway? They collectively go to the university and say we won't play unless you pay us, the university then says, ok, we won't field a team this year. What's the big deal? The team hasn't had a winning record in forever, and given the paltry attendance, I'm sure the University pays more money to operate the team than it brings in from ticket sales. I can't imagine fielding a losing team produces enough value-added good will for the university that it actually makes sense to cave into the demands of a handful of players - why not just NOT field a team? Why do they have a team right now? Most schools don't make money directly from most sports. They have the sports mainly for the entertainment and bonding of the students (especially the athletes), and to help build bonds with the alumni. The big money is not in ticket sales or even TV contracts, but in alumni donations (both before and after the alumni die). mmmm something tells me Dartmouth would be perfectly fine without the alumni donations of those that think it must field a competitive basketball team (which it doesn't and hasn't for a long time).
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 6, 2024 20:34:58 GMT -5
Union busting and hiring scabs is certainly a choice Dartmouth could make. I wouldn't entirely put it past them to do it out of panic, but hopefully someone with some PR sense would shut that down before it got out of a brainstorming session. But who are they trying to placate with their PR? Do you really think the university would actually suffer (an attendance drop, a brain drain, a reduction in overall funding etc.) because of what it chooses to do with its mens basketball program? I'm struggling to see how the university gets negatively impacted other than it being news story for a cycle or two.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 6, 2024 20:46:54 GMT -5
I wouldn't entirely put it past them to do it out of panic, but hopefully someone with some PR sense would shut that down before it got out of a brainstorming session. How long would Dartmouth have to go with no basketball team before new players wouldn't be considered scabs? For as long as a strike goes on, I would think. There certainly some financial reason to have a basketball team or they wouldn't have one. Donations, enrollment, tuition, the student experience, membership in the Ivy League, etc.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 6, 2024 20:48:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't entirely put it past them to do it out of panic, but hopefully someone with some PR sense would shut that down before it got out of a brainstorming session. But who are they trying to placate with their PR? Do you really think the university would actually suffer (an attendance drop, a brain drain, a reduction in overall funding etc.) because of what it chooses to do with its mens basketball program? I'm struggling to see how the university gets negatively impacted other than it being news story for a cycle or two. Again, let me ask you the question you didn't answer before. Why do they have a basketball team now?
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Post by n00b on Mar 6, 2024 20:55:40 GMT -5
But who are they trying to placate with their PR? Do you really think the university would actually suffer (an attendance drop, a brain drain, a reduction in overall funding etc.) because of what it chooses to do with its mens basketball program? I'm struggling to see how the university gets negatively impacted other than it being news story for a cycle or two. Again, let me ask you the question you didn't answer before. Why do they have a basketball team now? Great question. I bet a lot of Dartmouth administrators are asking that very question right now. But even if they didn't have an Ivy League team, they'd probably have a club team that travels to play other schools. And intramural leagues on campus. They offer sports because it's an activity their students want to participate in.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 6, 2024 20:58:33 GMT -5
Why do they have a team right now? Most schools don't make money directly from most sports. They have the sports mainly for the entertainment and bonding of the students (especially the athletes), and to help build bonds with the alumni. The big money is not in ticket sales or even TV contracts, but in alumni donations (both before and after the alumni die). mmmm something tells me Dartmouth would be perfectly fine without the alumni donations of those that think it must field a competitive basketball team (which it doesn't and hasn't for a long time). Not saying this applies to Dartmouth, but I worked somewhere with perhaps the worst football team in all of college athletics. Other sports did well but football was a literal embarrassment to the department. They kept the team because the three or four biggest donors to athletics were all football alumni and leadership was convinced that money would disappear if the program got dropped.
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 6, 2024 20:59:32 GMT -5
But who are they trying to placate with their PR? Do you really think the university would actually suffer (an attendance drop, a brain drain, a reduction in overall funding etc.) because of what it chooses to do with its mens basketball program? I'm struggling to see how the university gets negatively impacted other than it being news story for a cycle or two. Again, let me ask you the question you didn't answer before. Why do they have a basketball team now? Well to that, I do not know, I don't work at Dartmouth, but I'd wager that it's probably in large part because of "tradition".
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Post by SakiBomb25 on Mar 6, 2024 22:07:02 GMT -5
That's a separate lawsuit where two Brown basketball players have filed a class-action suit in federal court accusing the Ivy league of collusion by eliminating scholarships. The judge has allowed limited discovery, but could have just as easily dismissed the suit altogether imo: Ivy League Faces Federal Class Action Lawsuit over refusal to award athletic scholarships A class-action lawsuit filed March 2023 claimed eight Ivy League universities unlawfully colluded to reduce financial aid and compensation for student-athletes. Grace Kirk ‘24, a current student-athlete on Brown’s women’s basketball team, and Tamenang Choh ‘21, a former member of Brown’s men’s basketball team, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Connecticut on March 7. Both Plaintiffs turned down athletic scholarships at non-Ivy League schools and claim that the Ivy League schools colluded to “refuse to provide any athletic scholarships or other compensation/reimbursement for athletic services.” www2.law.temple.edu/voices/ivy-league-faces-federal-class-action-lawsuit-over-refusal-to-award-athletic-scholarships/#:~:text=However%2C%20they%20may%20be%20forced,and%20compensation%20for%20student%2Dathletes. I think this is a pretty flimsy argument. No one forced them to go to Brown. They could have taken the non-Ivy scholarship. But they decided not to… and now they are forcing the school to do something in which they knew about throughout their recruitment? Am I missing something here?
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 6, 2024 22:47:45 GMT -5
The judge has allowed limited discovery, but could have just as easily dismissed the suit altogether imo: Ivy League Faces Federal Class Action Lawsuit over refusal to award athletic scholarships A class-action lawsuit filed March 2023 claimed eight Ivy League universities unlawfully colluded to reduce financial aid and compensation for student-athletes. Grace Kirk ‘24, a current student-athlete on Brown’s women’s basketball team, and Tamenang Choh ‘21, a former member of Brown’s men’s basketball team, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Connecticut on March 7. Both Plaintiffs turned down athletic scholarships at non-Ivy League schools and claim that the Ivy League schools colluded to “refuse to provide any athletic scholarships or other compensation/reimbursement for athletic services.” www2.law.temple.edu/voices/ivy-league-faces-federal-class-action-lawsuit-over-refusal-to-award-athletic-scholarships/#:~:text=However%2C%20they%20may%20be%20forced,and%20compensation%20for%20student%2Dathletes. I think this is a pretty flimsy argument. No one forced them to go to Brown. They could have taken the non-Ivy scholarship. But they decided not to… and now they are forcing the school to do something in which they knew about throughout their recruitment? Am I missing something here? Everyone is missing the real issue in the Alston decision. They are basing some of this on a sentence by Kavanaugh in a concurring opinion, but the crux of Alston was not about the NCAA (or it’s members) paying for NIL, but restraining athletes from entering the labor market. And the actual opinion exempted conferences from the NCAA’s illegal restraint. The issue of them being employees is an issue completely separate from Alston.
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Post by InTheKnow on Mar 7, 2024 8:18:05 GMT -5
They have no idea how bad this would be for players. The support they get with the traditional model, that is majorly taken for granted, will stop and it won’t be good for a majority of the players. I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. If you're right that the only hope for college sports is the most hated man in the United States Senate, sounds like there's no hope. None of the support would be required if the model changes to an employee status. And for many schools most of the money for those things will not be available anymore. So areas that will take the hit will be travel, food, clothing, academic support, mental health support, elite strength equipment, medical support and more will be effected in major ways. Or even worse many sports will be lost all together. And if Cruz is the most hated man in the senate, you are giving people a reason to actually like him.
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Post by mervinswerved on Mar 7, 2024 8:59:06 GMT -5
I don't see any reason why any of that support would stop. If you're right that the only hope for college sports is the most hated man in the United States Senate, sounds like there's no hope. None of the support would be required if the model changes to an employee status. And for many schools most of the money for those things will not be available anymore. So areas that will take the hit will be travel, food, clothing, academic support, mental health support, elite strength equipment, medical support and more will be effected in major ways. I didn't realize professional teams don't have any of those things. Maybe they will be! I love college sports and worked in them for a long time (and still do), but nothing says they have to exist. Dartmouth is a weird first school to undergo this process because it's nonscholarship and relatively low in revenue compared to many other schools, but the revenue isn't zero. If paying 15 basketball players $20/hour for a 20 hour work week breaks Dartmouth, then maybe they need to revisit their priorities because employee status of some sort is almost certainly coming to college athletics.
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Post by n00b on Mar 7, 2024 9:08:41 GMT -5
None of the support would be required if the model changes to an employee status. And for many schools most of the money for those things will not be available anymore. So areas that will take the hit will be travel, food, clothing, academic support, mental health support, elite strength equipment, medical support and more will be effected in major ways. I didn't realize professional teams don't have any of those things. Maybe they will be! I love college sports and worked in them for a long time (and still do), but nothing says they have to exist. Dartmouth is a weird first school to undergo this process because it's nonscholarship and relatively low in revenue compared to many other schools, but the revenue isn't zero. If paying 15 basketball players $20/hour for a 20 hour work week breaks Dartmouth, then maybe they need to revisit their priorities because employee status of some sort is almost certainly coming to college athletics. “Some sort” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Being allowed to pay athletes because the athletic department has more money than they know what to do with is very different from being required to pay athletes in a department that loses money.
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