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Post by UCSBVball on Nov 5, 2004 19:22:23 GMT -5
Worth reading - but few will because most of us already know everything (;>) www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/041101/opinion/1edit.htm from the article "The French worked at every turn to frustrate efforts to hold Saddam's feet to the fire. A French legislator even told an Iraqi intelligence official that Paris would veto any U.N. resolution authorizing war against Iraq. In fact, France threatened to do just that. But for what, exactly? Iraq's deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz, told Duelfer that "French oil companies wanted to secure two large oil contracts." National bribery on top of individual bribery--now, that's something you don't see every day."
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 5, 2004 19:31:34 GMT -5
Nice article and from an unbiased source to boot. Of course some of us were already well aware.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 6, 2004 11:29:20 GMT -5
Its amazing that all of you folks that were already so well aware of such things weren't able to present any credible evidence of it BEFORE the invasion of Iraq.
If there had been readily available evidence of such actions being planned by France then it could have been presented to the UN and gotten sanctions to be made even stronger against Iraq (and perhaps even against France.)
Bush failed to use his own advice and didn't wait until he had "all the facts" before making the invasion.
Bush and his advisors assumed and publicly claimed it would be a war that will last week, certainly not months or years.
Bush and his advisors completely underestimated the financial burden of the war efforts.
Bush and his advisors sent their troops to Iraq knowing full well that the didn't have the body armor necessary, AND they're own party's senators were the ones that voted against the original bill for supplying an additional $87 billion in funds for the war efforts. Additional funding that they assured everyone would absolutely not be necessary before the invasion was launched.
Terrorism levels are higher now than before the invasion.
With reportedly over 100,000 Iraqis killed during the war there appears to be an increasingly better chance that more of them will be killed during this war than were killed during Hussein's WMD actions against his own people before the war is actually over.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 6, 2004 12:27:13 GMT -5
Its amazing that all of you folks that were already so well aware of such things weren't able to present any credible evidence of it BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. If there had been readily available evidence of such actions being planned by France then it could have been presented to the UN and gotten sanctions to be made even stronger against Iraq (and perhaps even against France.) France's Oil dealings with Hussein was no secret. The information was readily available to anyone who sought it. I mentioned it back in 2003 when France tried to prevent the US from going into Iraq to deal with Hussein as a reason why Chirac and the French wanted to keep Hussein in power. Gorf you have too much faith in the UN. The UN knew what was going on as it relates to the French. Talking about further sanctions against Iraq or the French is just very naive. Remember the UN's Oil for food program and what a mess that turned out to be? The UN is incompetent as a governing body. It authors resolutions that it doesn't even have the balls to enforce. Really UN troops should be wearing pink helmets, not powder blue ones. The sooner America withdrawls from this pathetic organization, the better. Why not kick them out of NY while we're at it? That would be nice.
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Post by bigfan on Nov 6, 2004 12:34:36 GMT -5
[quote author=BiK link=board=news&thread=1099700543&start=3#0 date=1099762033]
The UN is incompetent as a governing body. It authors resolution that it doesn't even have the balls to enforce. The sooner America withdrawls from this pathetic organization, the better. Why not kick them out of NY while we're at it? That would be nice.[/quote]BIK, this isolationist attitude is what our country had in the 1930's and led to WW2. The UN was the idea of FDR and pushed through by Truman; they even gave the land for the set-up. They both realized that U.S. must be involved in the politics of the world, we have to be engaged for the security of this wonderful nation.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 6, 2004 12:53:13 GMT -5
BIK, this isolationist attitude is what our country had in the 1930's and led to WW2. The UN was the idea of FDR and pushed through by Truman; they even gave the land for the set-up. They both realized that U.S. must be involved in the politics of the world, we have to be engaged for the security of this wonderful nation. WW2 wasn't started by America. I understand the second part of your comment, even agree to some extent. However, the UN the way it is now is a joke.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 6, 2004 13:47:18 GMT -5
[quote author=BiK link=board=news&thread=1099700543&start=3#0 date=1099762033] France's Oil dealings with Hussein was no secret. The information was readily available to anyone who sought it. I mentioned it back in 2003 when France tried to prevent the US from going into Iraq to deal with Hussein as a reason why Chirac and the French wanted to keep Hussein in power. [/quote]
You mentioned absolutely nothing along the lines of what the article was insinuating.
They wasted their time on made up stories about knowing 100% that there were WMD's in Iraq AND telling lies that they knew EXACTLY where they were in Iraq.
Pathetic.
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Post by bigfan on Nov 6, 2004 13:48:48 GMT -5
[quote author=BiK link=board=news&thread=1099700543&start=5#0 date=1099763593]
WW2 wasn't started by America. I understand the second part of your comment, even agree to some extent. However, the UN the way it is now is a joke.[/quote]The United States backed Chamberlain when he tried to appease Hitler with a non-aggression pact. Einstein, Neils Bohr and Oppenheimer all fled Germany due to religious persecution and told FDR and the State Dept what was really happening in Germany in the late 1930's. We also at that time dissolved the League of Nations due to our isolationist policies. Does the U.N. stink? Yes. What do you suggest?
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Post by Mr. Pink on Nov 6, 2004 15:29:14 GMT -5
Of course the UN stinks, they're a bunch of foreigners that probably don't shower and don't use deodorant.
I think that the big issue now needs to be how to solve the issues involving Irag. The one thing we may never know is if it WAS the right thing to do. That's the hard part about pre-emption. Saddam may have been ready to develope weapons, he may have had them and they were removed. The Government's not going to tell us. Even if it meant re-electing Bush by a bigger margin.
Anyway, I support the war becuase I have two family members involved. My Uncle is there now, and my cousin is serving his second tour in Afgan. having already served in Fallujah. Lloy Ball's Bro-in-law also served in Irag and had only POSITIVE things to say. He was also in Fallujah. While things may not be going great over there, I haven't seen any attacks here. I hope that it stays that way for a long time (meaning safe here!). I would also like to get it cleaned up over there as well.
I am more afraid of what might happen from our own people right now as opposed to a foreigner.
Little tid bit. Last year the crime rate was higher in Chicago than it was in Baghdad (that includes attacks). More people were killed due to violence in Chicago and NY than of all citizens in Iraq.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2004 15:48:04 GMT -5
100,000+ people killed in NY and Chicago last year? I think not.
And I think it is moral corruption for us to be thankful we have created a terrorist battleground in Iraq so that we are all safe back here. What did the Iraqis do to deserve such a fate?
Meanwhile, Osama continues to thumb his nose at us. Wrong war. Wrong place. Wrong time.
Way to go, W.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 6, 2004 15:51:58 GMT -5
The United States backed Chamberlain when he tried to appease Hitler with a non-aggression pact. A prime example of what can happen when you take the road to pacificsm when dealing with people like Hitler and Hussein. Chamberlain's cowardice became Churchill's strength. We also at that time dissolved the League of Nations due to our isolationist policies. Does the U.N. stink? Yes. What do you suggest? We withdrawl from the UN. Let's see how much authority the UN has without American muscle behind it. As far as the rest of the world community is concerned, I don't care, let them fight amonst themselves.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 6, 2004 15:54:19 GMT -5
You mentioned absolutely nothing along the lines of what the article was insinuating. I guess you do get more forgetful with age.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 6, 2004 16:07:50 GMT -5
I take it you're referring to yourself BiK?
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 6, 2004 16:08:36 GMT -5
I take it you're referring to yourself BiK? Not me Gorf, I'm still in my prime. ;D
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Post by Mr. Pink on Nov 6, 2004 16:10:35 GMT -5
100,000 deaths is a lot, but let me ask this. Do you know personnally how many of those deaths were caused by homicidal actions? Or how many of those were caused by their own people? So what your telling me is that crime in the US is NOT the same as what is happening in Iraq. The reason that type of death didn't happen before is because Saddam put people in fear by killing or raping civilians. 100,000 people die in this country a year from accidents. ACCIDENTS! Should we stop doing things for fear of death from tripping? Also, you talk about no evidence of weapons, SO WHAT. How about the graves of 100,000's of people that have been found... in area's where they know graves were. How about where they don't know. Your stance on this issue makes you just as bad as our Euro-trash's Grandparents. Appease, Appease, Appease. And remember all the civilians killed the last time they had to remedy that situation. Try MILLIONS of Jews for starters.
Enough said...I am going to watch our lack luster DII women's team play. Then to practice.
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