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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Sept 18, 2013 13:18:34 GMT -5
Michigan is going to chime in and claim Karch! I just got a flash of the Race draft Chapelle did a few years ago! Not too long ago, some dingdong on the women's board actually did claim Karch as a Michigan player. |
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Post by crawdaddy on Sept 18, 2013 19:31:41 GMT -5
I thought on this for a while, maybe too long. I started playing in volleyball tournaments in 1987 (15 yrs old), in the Clearwater/St. Pete area. I don't remember everything from the early days, and teams were for sure more local. Don Worley (SP), in Sarasota had the best tournaments because he drew both the East Coasters and West Coasters of Florida. Also paid decent, and actually did the 1st ranking system for all divisions. I think I only saw 1 or 2 Molson tournaments and the Halls were the only Non-Florida team I remember. So, while this thread is East Coast, my early teams are based on what they did in Florida. The Greatest TEAM in Florida Beach volleyball history is Mike Ryan and Kenny Haan, Period. The dominated the 80s in Florida. Followed closely by Chuck Coulter and Erine Brasch - articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-07-30/news/8501310550_1_volleyball-lake-aspectI also have to mention Mike Barszcz,in the late 80s, beginning of the 90s he was the best player playing IMO. He was a bit shorter version of John Hyden I'd say. I missed the mid 90s in Florida because I was in the ARMY. When I got out and back to FL, it was 95. You had players like Tony Cothron & Burke Stefko plus Cali/Hi imports Chris Hannemann, Mark Paaluhi and James Fellows(still the nastiest Jump serve I've ever seen) Oh, and some kid from Ft. Lauderdale was winning opens, George Roumain.. Really, after Molson and not until the dig the Beach (old Bud light), Toyota and East End there wasn't a lot of mixing the East Coast and Florida. So, here is my top 10 based on East Coast & AVP performances. 1. Phil 2. Nick 3. Hall Brothers 4. George Roumain 5. Henry russell 6. Mike Ryan & Ken Haan 6. Burke Stefko 7. Grotowski 8. Adam Roberts 9. Mike DiPerro 10. Adrian Just Missed...Chad Turner Missing the Cut were Dana, BJ & Gaston the 3 Van Zwieten Bros. (Ranked Mark, Jim, Steve IMO) Tony Cothron (didn't play enough AVPs in his prime) others Jake Elliott, Ihor, Jim Walls, Matt Henderson, Mike Folestein,Ranse Jones, Ron Jenkins Jay Mears, Mike Morales, John Yancy & Greg White. Women (Florida List, not that qualified): 1. Tyra (1 AVP win) 2. Nancy Cothron (1 P&R win and an AVP 2nd) 3. Brooke Sweat (will jump with an AVP win) 4. Franci Van Zwieten 5. Toni Weston 6. Lynda Street 7. Kim Whitney 8. Tara Kuk 9. Chara Harris 10.Barb Bierman Not sure where Gabrielle Reece falls...whatever. |
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Post by crawdaddy on Sept 18, 2013 19:40:00 GMT -5
This exercise really drives home how East Coast talent has been beyon Nick and Phil. The Hall brothers (number 3 on the list) dominated tournaments with East Coast players only but the truth is they rarely, if ever, beat a California team back in the day. You'll see some AVP finishes for them on beach volleyball database because in the mid-1980s the number of CA teams that traveled to East Coast events was small enough that an East Coast team could take a ninth (and sometimes even a seventh) without beating a CA team. Perhaps if either of the Halls had teamed up with a legit blocker, they could have had some decent finishes - both were very good ball control players. But as a team they didn't match up with the CA AVP teams back then. Their legend, though, is huge.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 19, 2013 9:10:02 GMT -5
This exercise really drives home how East Coast talent has been beyon Nick and Phil. The Hall brothers (number 3 on the list) dominated tournaments with East Coast players only but the truth is they rarely, if ever, beat a California team back in the day. You'll see some AVP finishes for them on beach volleyball database because in the mid-1980s the number of CA teams that traveled to East Coast events was small enough that an East Coast team could take a ninth (and sometimes even a seventh) without beating a CA team. Perhaps if either of the Halls had teamed up with a legit blocker, they could have had some decent finishes - both were very good ball control players. But as a team they didn't match up with the CA AVP teams back then. Their legend, though, is huge. First of all there were three Hall brothers not two. Carter was a little bit older, and legendary for both volleyball and smoking during side changes. Second it simply isn't true that they couldn't match up with the Cali teams. With Smith/Stoklos and Hovie/Dodd? Sure, but mid level players frequently came to the East Coast and got beat by the Halls. articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-05-21/sports/9005210289_1_hannemann-hall-hall-drokeThere isn't much about those days available online but in that article alone you can see Chris Hanneman, Drake or Rudy Dvorak, Brian Gatzke, and Joel Janc played in that one. Pono Ma, Jimmy Nichols, both Dvoraks, and many other middling AVP guys tried their luck on the East Coast tour and were handily beaten by the Halls. I agree both Frank and Richmond would have been better off with big blockers (they were the Jake and B.J. of their day) but Richmond certainly could have been a solid pro if he wanted to travel. Not a John Hanley but certainly an Owen McKibbin or Al Janc |
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Post by crawdaddy on Sept 19, 2013 10:40:38 GMT -5
Sorry guest1, beating a couple journeyman CA guys like Kevin Droke (whose best finish on the AVP tour was 17th) in some East Coast mini-tour event is not the same as beating a real AVP tour player. Show me a result from an AVP tournament where they beat a CA team. I'm not talking Hov-Dodd, but any real AVP touring professional. Love those guys, but there should be some perspective. And I know there are three bros, biut Frank and Richmond were the two who competed in the events we're talking about.
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Post by crawdaddy on Sept 19, 2013 10:58:18 GMT -5
By the way, I agree that both Halls could have competed on the AVP tour with big blockers. So my critique is not really where you ranked them on the list,.
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Post by crawdaddy on Sept 19, 2013 10:59:20 GMT -5
By the way, I agree that both Halls could have competed on the AVP tour with big blockers. So my critique is not really where you ranked them on the list,.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 19, 2013 11:24:06 GMT -5
Sorry guest1, beating a couple journeyman CA guys like Kevin Droke (whose best finish on the AVP tour was 17th) in some East Coast mini-tour event is not the same as beating a real AVP tour player. Show me a result from an AVP tournament where they beat a CA team. I'm not talking Hov-Dodd, but any real AVP touring professional. Love those guys, but there should be some perspective. And I know there are three bros, biut Frank and Richmond were the two who competed in the events we're talking about. The trouble is the years they were at their best there aren't a lot of finishers listed anywhere. In fact they are only recorded as playing one AVP event on BVBinfo which I know is not true. Brian Gatzke played AVP for years, Jimmy Nichols more than a decade, Rudy Dvorak almost 100 events, Chris Hanneman was legit, Pono Ma'a Even on the old Molson tour the Halls didn't travel that much. Really a shame they didn't have more ambition |
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Post by JB Southpaw on Sept 19, 2013 11:44:34 GMT -5
Sorry guest1, beating a couple journeyman CA guys like Kevin Droke (whose best finish on the AVP tour was 17th) in some East Coast mini-tour event is not the same as beating a real AVP tour player. Show me a result from an AVP tournament where they beat a CA team. I'm not talking Hov-Dodd, but any real AVP touring professional. Love those guys, but there should be some perspective. And I know there are three bros, biut Frank and Richmond were the two who competed in the events we're talking about. Since it was my list.... I did state that it was more than just where players finished on the AVP. I put what players meant in significance to East Coast Volleyball, a mix of National and regional event finishes were included. |
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Post by ciscokeed on Sept 19, 2013 11:56:12 GMT -5
I think Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan should be ranked higher on the list- they came upon the California scene and finished top four in opens- which was absolutely unheard of at that time. No non California players had ever had that impact. In terms of the Hall brothers they reminded me of the Stratos brothers. Wonderful ball control, tough competitors, but in those old two day opens they would have lost on the first match of Sunday... Kind of a 9th-13th finish if they had played in California.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Sept 19, 2013 12:04:21 GMT -5
I think Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan should be ranked higher on the list- they came upon the California scene and finished top four in opens- which was absolutely unheard of at that time. No non California players had ever had that impact. In terms of the Hall brothers they reminded me of the Stratos brothers. Wonderful ball control, tough competitors, but in those old two day opens they would have lost on the first match of Sunday... Kind of a 9th-13th finish if they had played in California. I wanted to put them higher, didn't know of their showings outside of Florida. Thought the Halls were a bit more traveled up and down the coast. I was about 5 years too young to fully understand what they were doing. |
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Post by guest2 on Sept 19, 2013 12:09:15 GMT -5
I think Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan should be ranked higher on the list- they came upon the California scene and finished top four in opens- which was absolutely unheard of at that time. No non California players had ever had that impact. In terms of the Hall brothers they reminded me of the Stratos brothers. Wonderful ball control, tough competitors, but in those old two day opens they would have lost on the first match of Sunday... Kind of a 9th-13th finish if they had played in California. I think that's a pretty fair evaluation. 9th-13th in a full field California AVP. I never saw Ryan, and I assume when I saw Kenny it must have been very late in his career, but were these AVP opens they were finishing top 4 in? To JB, the Halls did travel some, but not like a lot of modern players. I know some guys when there was a Toyota Tour, would play Florida, the Toyotas, the big Jersey Shore events, and maybe a couple AVPs. |
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Post by ciscokeed on Sept 19, 2013 12:11:52 GMT -5
I had moderate success in the early days in Cali- had a 5th in a Cuervo, but normally was finishing 9th/13th/ kind of thing. Played against Kenny and MIke in the Santa CRuz open(lost)the Hall brothers twice in the semi's of the Virginia Beach Open, and lost both times. However, I agree with the statements that they would not have finished in the top tier of the AVP events. And that is where Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan were different. I saw them play, and they absolutely belonged in the top tier- granted this was just the open era, no professional ball at that time, but they were legit....
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Post by JB Southpaw on Sept 19, 2013 12:36:25 GMT -5
I think Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan should be ranked higher on the list- they came upon the California scene and finished top four in opens- which was absolutely unheard of at that time. No non California players had ever had that impact. In terms of the Hall brothers they reminded me of the Stratos brothers. Wonderful ball control, tough competitors, but in those old two day opens they would have lost on the first match of Sunday... Kind of a 9th-13th finish if they had played in California. I think that's a pretty fair evaluation. 9th-13th in a full field California AVP. I never saw Ryan, and I assume when I saw Kenny it must have been very late in his career, but were these AVP opens they were finishing top 4 in? To JB, the Halls did travel some, but not like a lot of modern players. I know some guys when there was a Toyota Tour, would play Florida, the Toyotas, the big Jersey Shore events, and maybe a couple AVPs. Agreed, when Toyota was going was a good time for East Coast. I'm sure Rich Heiles could give some good insight too. |
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Post by JB Southpaw on Sept 19, 2013 12:37:52 GMT -5
I had moderate success in the early days in Cali- had a 5th in a Cuervo, but normally was finishing 9th/13th/ kind of thing. Played against Kenny and MIke in the Santa CRuz open(lost)the Hall brothers twice in the semi's of the Virginia Beach Open, and lost both times. However, I agree with the statements that they would not have finished in the top tier of the AVP events. And that is where Kenny Haan and Mike Ryan were different. I saw them play, and they absolutely belonged in the top tier- granted this was just the open era, no professional ball at that time, but they were legit.... thanks for the input, nice to learn. |
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