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Post by werka on May 17, 2020 0:02:35 GMT -5
Man....I'm currently watching some of the IOQT matches.....not just the USA ones. Poland literally should have made the Olympics TWICE. They were out playing Serbia in Pool A but just didn't play clean enough. Granted Serbia was without Rasic which makes a big difference. Poland then basically had Turkey on the ropes during the CEV semi's and just didn't finish. Their middles are enormous and should be more effective offensively but just kinda of prance around out there and don't stay engaged in the play. Stysiak is only going to get better each year and her paired with Smarzek-Godek is quickly going to become another Mihajlovic/Boskovic combo. In the end the experience of the Serbian team got them over the line. Serbia sure cleaned things up by the time they started the European Championships. Brazil and the USA just didn't look good ya'll. Granted I think that 5 set win over Bulgaria saw the Europeans play the match of their lives and that was by no means the best the USA could field. Still it was great experience for some of the younger players. Brazil will be a major player if everyone can get healthy and can start Natalia, Gabi and Tandara all at once. Going 5 sets with Azerbaijan and the Dominican Republic had them visibly shook. I think they would have easily qualified through CSV if it came down to it. USA i'm not so sure with them coming up short vs. the Dominican Republic twice that season....albeit in 5 sets....in true Dominicana fashion. 😉 Russia vs. Korea was ALL Korea in the first two and a half sets but some sloppy volleyball opened the door and Russia woke up and finally started playing clean. When they are on they are capable of being among the best. China and Italy were one word: CLINICAL. That is the bar. All else must meet it if they hope to make it to the Olympic final. Good notes as always, ToddyJ ! With regards to USA, I wouldn't be too critical about them. 2019 USA was definitely a new face with a lot of players leaving who have been starters at the first half of the quad (Murphy, Gibby, Carli), positional changes, and key additions. I think we started seeing what 2020 USA could have looked like late and so they had some growing to do over 2019. If they could use this delay to their advantage, they could keep on finding their bearings and rotations that could give the 3 favorites a run for their money. As always, I will keep on believing they can do it.
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Post by ToddyJ on May 17, 2020 0:25:37 GMT -5
I think I'd give Italy a bit more credit. They shut down the Netherlands quite dominantly. But yes....If Egonu does well the team does win rather emphatically. Otherwise I agree. I was a bit shocked to see Serbia struggle against Poland. Poland was leading in sets 2 and 4 but Serbia was able to play cleaner volleyball and managed to pull out the win. On the whole Serbia was getting blocked A LOT by Poland. Poland was more terminal but was just making lots of unforced errors especially from their middles not keying into the play which was compounded by Stysiak's passing woes. You should never be surprised to see Serbia struggle. That has been their history forever. They can have huge peaks, and devastating bottoms. I'm still relatively new to the fandom of the sport. So I haven't been watching these teams all that long. That's something I'll keep an eye out for. Compared to their previous run of good performances through the quad that was definitely towards the bottom and yet it still looked better than the level of play from the entirety of pools C,D and E.
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Post by ToddyJ on May 17, 2020 0:31:47 GMT -5
Man....I'm currently watching some of the IOQT matches.....not just the USA ones. Poland literally should have made the Olympics TWICE. They were out playing Serbia in Pool A but just didn't play clean enough. Granted Serbia was without Rasic which makes a big difference. Poland then basically had Turkey on the ropes during the CEV semi's and just didn't finish. Their middles are enormous and should be more effective offensively but just kinda of prance around out there and don't stay engaged in the play. Stysiak is only going to get better each year and her paired with Smarzek-Godek is quickly going to become another Mihajlovic/Boskovic combo. In the end the experience of the Serbian team got them over the line. Serbia sure cleaned things up by the time they started the European Championships. Brazil and the USA just didn't look good ya'll. Granted I think that 5 set win over Bulgaria saw the Europeans play the match of their lives and that was by no means the best the USA could field. Still it was great experience for some of the younger players. Brazil will be a major player if everyone can get healthy and can start Natalia, Gabi and Tandara all at once. Going 5 sets with Azerbaijan and the Dominican Republic had them visibly shook. I think they would have easily qualified through CSV if it came down to it. USA i'm not so sure with them coming up short vs. the Dominican Republic twice that season....albeit in 5 sets....in true Dominicana fashion. 😉 Russia vs. Korea was ALL Korea in the first two and a half sets but some sloppy volleyball opened the door and Russia woke up and finally started playing clean. When they are on they are capable of being among the best. China and Italy were one word: CLINICAL. That is the bar. All else must meet it if they hope to make it to the Olympic final. Good notes as always, ToddyJ ! With regards to USA, I wouldn't be too critical about them. 2019 USA was definitely a new face with a lot of players leaving who have been starters at the first half of the quad (Murphy, Gibby, Carli), positional changes, and key additions. I think we started seeing what 2020 USA could have looked like late and so they had some growing to do over 2019. If they could use this delay to their advantage, they could keep on finding their bearings and rotations that could give the 3 favorites a run for their money. As always, I will keep on believing they can do it. Oh me too. I was cautiously optimistic about the teams medal chances in Tokyo before the delay. In going back over footage I am simply realizing that the level of play from the team in 2019 was very erratic but, as you mentioned, that was due to the massive shift in players entering and exiting the program. I just fully understand that the level of play for most of the international season was not as competitive as a normal year and was drastically sub-par for the penultimate year before an Olympic Games. That's on the FIVB for not knowing how to make a schedule. I think all teams will benefit from more time to train and recover. Every team should count it as a blessing.
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Post by ace35 on May 17, 2020 5:04:42 GMT -5
Good notes as always, ToddyJ ! With regards to USA, I wouldn't be too critical about them. 2019 USA was definitely a new face with a lot of players leaving who have been starters at the first half of the quad (Murphy, Gibby, Carli), positional changes, and key additions. I think we started seeing what 2020 USA could have looked like late and so they had some growing to do over 2019. If they could use this delay to their advantage, they could keep on finding their bearings and rotations that could give the 3 favorites a run for their money. As always, I will keep on believing they can do it. Oh me too. I was cautiously optimistic about the teams medal chances in Tokyo before the delay. In going back over footage I am simply realizing that the level of play from the team in 2019 was very erratic but, as you mentioned, that was due to the massive shift in players entering and exiting the program. I just fully understand that the level of play for most of the international season was not as competitive as a normal year and was drastically sub-par for the penultimate year before an Olympic Games. That's on the FIVB for not knowing how to make a schedule. I think all teams will benefit from more time to train and recover. Every team should count it as a blessing. I told you that back last year, remember? Back then, you didn't quite believe me. I'm glad to see you have seen the light. Btw, a great observation by the other 2 members that at this moment in time, as Egonu goes so does Italy (have you seen Serbia-Italy semi at Eurovolley? Egonu was atrocious, and the whole team was as a result sub-par), and that Serbia is a team of enormous highs and quite a significant lows (that's because they have maybe the most lethal offence in the world, but the worst reception and defence among Top 6 teams, and are relying on destroying their opponent BEFORE that opponent can exploit their weak defence).
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Post by ToddyJ on May 17, 2020 12:30:23 GMT -5
I find it fascinating that so many teams have such glaring weaknesses. Anyone care to take a crack at what they think the big teams do well vs. what cripples them?
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Post by alohavball on May 17, 2020 12:34:07 GMT -5
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Post by donut on May 17, 2020 12:38:35 GMT -5
Man....I'm currently watching some of the IOQT matches.....not just the USA ones. Poland literally should have made the Olympics TWICE. They were out playing Serbia in Pool A but just didn't play clean enough. Granted Serbia was without Rasic which makes a big difference. Poland then basically had Turkey on the ropes during the CEV semi's and just didn't finish. Their middles are enormous and should be more effective offensively but just kinda of prance around out there and don't stay engaged in the play. Stysiak is only going to get better each year and her paired with Smarzek-Godek is quickly going to become another Mihajlovic/Boskovic combo. In the end the experience of the Serbian team got them over the line. Serbia sure cleaned things up by the time they started the European Championships. Brazil and the USA just didn't look good ya'll. Granted I think that 5 set win over Bulgaria saw the Europeans play the match of their lives and that was by no means the best the USA could field. Still it was great experience for some of the younger players. Brazil will be a major player if everyone can get healthy and can start Natalia, Gabi and Tandara all at once. Going 5 sets with Azerbaijan and the Dominican Republic had them visibly shook. I think they would have easily qualified through CSV if it came down to it. USA i'm not so sure with them coming up short vs. the Dominican Republic twice that season....albeit in 5 sets....in true Dominicana fashion. 😉 Russia vs. Korea was ALL Korea in the first two and a half sets but some sloppy volleyball opened the door and Russia woke up and finally started playing clean. When they are on they are capable of being among the best. China and Italy were one word: CLINICAL. That is the bar. All else must meet it if they hope to make it to the Olympic final. I would never describe Italy as clinical. They are a team driven by emotion. At the moment, Italy's situation is that, for the most part, as Egonu goes, so goes Italy. I think that China and Serbia are the current favorites, with Italy and USA as contenders. I'd put Italy up there with China and Serbia. Italy beat China all 3 times they faced each other at the last World Championships (the last time we really saw all 3 at full strength). But at the very least, Italy and the USA don't belong on the same tier. If Italy is a contender, does that make USA a pretender?
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Post by ToddyJ on May 17, 2020 13:14:51 GMT -5
I would never describe Italy as clinical. They are a team driven by emotion. At the moment, Italy's situation is that, for the most part, as Egonu goes, so goes Italy. I think that China and Serbia are the current favorites, with Italy and USA as contenders. I'd put Italy up there with China and Serbia. Italy beat China all 3 times they faced each other at the last World Championships (the last time we really saw all 3 at full strength). But at the very least, Italy and the USA don't belong on the same tier. If Italy is a contender, does that make USA a pretender? Ouch...I see you are a USA fan?
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Post by volleyguy on May 17, 2020 13:17:16 GMT -5
I would never describe Italy as clinical. They are a team driven by emotion. At the moment, Italy's situation is that, for the most part, as Egonu goes, so goes Italy. I think that China and Serbia are the current favorites, with Italy and USA as contenders. I'd put Italy up there with China and Serbia. Italy beat China all 3 times they faced each other at the last World Championships (the last time we really saw all 3 at full strength). But at the very least, Italy and the USA don't belong on the same tier. If Italy is a contender, does that make USA a pretender? Italy is a contender with Egono on her game, but consistency seems to be a problem, despite their WCH performance.
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Tokyo 2021
May 17, 2020 13:44:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by donut on May 17, 2020 13:44:47 GMT -5
I'd put Italy up there with China and Serbia. Italy beat China all 3 times they faced each other at the last World Championships (the last time we really saw all 3 at full strength). But at the very least, Italy and the USA don't belong on the same tier. If Italy is a contender, does that make USA a pretender? Ouch...I see you are a USA fan? Being a fan doesn’t mean being delusional. I think there’s a pretty clear gap between us and the top 3 teams, as of today.
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Tokyo 2021
May 17, 2020 13:51:33 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by donut on May 17, 2020 13:51:33 GMT -5
I'd put Italy up there with China and Serbia. Italy beat China all 3 times they faced each other at the last World Championships (the last time we really saw all 3 at full strength). But at the very least, Italy and the USA don't belong on the same tier. If Italy is a contender, does that make USA a pretender? Italy is a contender with Egono on her game, but consistency seems to be a problem, despite their WCH performance. I don’t disagree with you. I just think it’s hard to rationalize putting China on a tier above Italy, when Italy consistently beat China in the last major tournament.
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Post by volleyguy on May 17, 2020 14:26:34 GMT -5
Italy is a contender with Egono on her game, but consistency seems to be a problem, despite their WCH performance. I don’t disagree with you. I just think it’s hard to rationalize putting China on a tier above Italy, when Italy consistently beat China in the last major tournament. I'm not sure what you mean by rationalize in the above sentence. I understand it to mean using a dubious argument to fit a desired result or scenario. Italy is [too] heavily dependent on Egonu. I don't think there is much doubt about that.
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Post by ace35 on May 17, 2020 14:43:56 GMT -5
There are 2 problems in creating a simplistic tier-system category of favourites:
1)As I said above, on paper, Italy is perhaps the strongest NT in the world (their youth notwithstanding), but psychologically, they depend, to an unnatural degree, on Egonu's level of play. Because she is such a queen bee of the squad, when she is bad, other squad members (who are very good players) lose confidence in their own and the team's ability to overcome the obstacle (and this issue is amplified the stronger the enemy is). In other words, the team becomes much, much less than the sum of its parts
2)The experience of the last 2-3 years would seem to suggest that Italy has an advantage (whether it is psychological or tactical or something else) over China, while China seems to have an advantage over Serbia (though to be fair, they haven't met each other even once in this quad where it clearly mattered to both teams and were at full strength; this impression is more a leftover from 2015-2017 era, when Zhu was at her absolute height).
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Tokyo 2021
May 17, 2020 14:54:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by donut on May 17, 2020 14:54:00 GMT -5
I don’t disagree with you. I just think it’s hard to rationalize putting China on a tier above Italy, when Italy consistently beat China in the last major tournament. I'm not sure what you mean by rationalize in the above sentence. I understand it to mean using a dubious argument to fit a desired result or scenario. Italy is [too] heavily dependent on Egonu. I don't think there is much doubt about that. I’ll rephrase. These are the two statements/ideas I’m having trouble logically accepting both as true: “Italy is a contender, while China is a favorite.” “Italy beat China two times in a row at the last major tournament.” (I misread the World Champ website, they only played twice). You say inconsistency/over-reliance (obviously paraphrasing here) is the explanation for how both can be true. Italy consistently (less strong with only two victories versus three, for sure) beat China while over-relying on Egonu. I’m fine disagreeing here. All 3 teams have weaknesses. I personally just don’t think Italy’s weaknesses are strong enough to knock them down a level from China and Serbia, especially if that next level includes the USA.
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Tokyo 2021
May 17, 2020 15:05:38 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by donut on May 17, 2020 15:05:38 GMT -5
There are 2 problems in creating a simplistic tier-system category of favourites: 1)As I said above, on paper, Italy is perhaps the strongest NT in the world (their youth notwithstanding), but psychologically, they depend, to an unnatural degree, on Egonu's level of play. Because she is such a queen bee of the squad, when she is bad, other squad members (who are very good players) lose confidence in their own and the team's ability to overcome the obstacle (and this issue is amplified the stronger the enemy is). In other words, the team becomes much, much less than the sum of its parts 2)The experience of the last 2-3 years would seem to suggest that Italy has an advantage (whether it is psychological or tactical or something else) over China, while China seems to have an advantage over Serbia (though to be fair, they haven't met each other even once in this quad where it clearly mattered to both teams and were at full strength; this impression is more a leftover from 2015-2017 era, when Zhu was at her absolute height). Your reasoning doesn’t really point to issues specific to a tier-based system, but rather, issues with comparing the teams at all. That being said, I’m not trying to advocate for any system. If I had to rank/evaluate the NT teams today, it would look something like this: 1. Serbia 2. China 3. Italy 4. United States I think the gap between 1 and 3 is much much smaller than the gap between 3 and 4. I’m also comfortable switching 2 and 3. That’s all.
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