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Post by matte on Apr 19, 2020 6:13:17 GMT -5
Larson, Hill and MBH are getting older. I think Team USA needs someone who can be more terminal and Kathryn Plummer can be that player. The amount of power she can bring on court cannot be matched by the other outsides. I would like to see her on the left with the libero and OH2 covering most of the floor at passing and Annie Drews as opposite.
I don't get why people are reluctant to give KP chances, I mean, she's one of the most successful NCAA player ever, she cannot be that bad...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 8:08:20 GMT -5
No, actually. I think (where applicable) individual performances are a better indication of individual ability. Things like hitting and passing and blocking and serving. Team performances are a better indication of team ability. Things like winning and medals. But if that's the metric you're using, I can see why you'd think Larson/Hill are better. I won't dispute that with you. I think sustained team success in multiple different locations playing with different teammates and different coaches says quite a bit about the individual. That doesn’t fit with your narrative, though, so it makes sense that you reject it. Still waiting for the numbers from Club World Championships btw. My "narrative" was posted with data from a tournament in which all 3 participated. You choose to ignore it in favor of your opinion that Kim Hill's involvement with Conegliano is evidence alone that she's the 3rd best OH in the game. There's an argument to be made that Hill's not even the third best player on that TEAM! She's certainly not more important than either Wolosz or Egonu to them... And no team is preparing for Conegliano by saying "We just have to hold Kim Hill under 20 points and we win". And you haven't presented any data to justify your opinion.
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Post by jwvolley on Apr 19, 2020 8:19:12 GMT -5
I think sustained team success in multiple different locations playing with different teammates and different coaches says quite a bit about the individual. That doesn’t fit with your narrative, though, so it makes sense that you reject it. Still waiting for the numbers from Club World Championships btw. My "narrative" was posted with data from a tournament in which all 3 participated. You choose to ignore it in favor of your opinion that Kim Hill's involvement with Conegliano is evidence alone that she's the 3rd best OH in the game. That's an argument to be made that Hill's not even the third best player on that TEAM! She's certainly not more important than either Wolosz or Egonu to them... And no team is preparing for Conegliano by saying "We just have to hold Kim Hill under 20 points and we win". And you haven't presented any data to justify your opinion. I'm confused by this argument. what do Egonu (opp) and Wolosz (setter) have to do with Hill's abilities as an OH?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 8:22:29 GMT -5
My "narrative" was posted with data from a tournament in which all 3 participated. You choose to ignore it in favor of your opinion that Kim Hill's involvement with Conegliano is evidence alone that she's the 3rd best OH in the game. That's an argument to be made that Hill's not even the third best player on that TEAM! She's certainly not more important than either Wolosz or Egonu to them... And no team is preparing for Conegliano by saying "We just have to hold Kim Hill under 20 points and we win". And you haven't presented any data to justify your opinion. I'm confused by this argument. what do Egonu (opp) and Wolosz (setter) have to do with Hill's abilities as an OH? Well one of them sets the ball for her and the other one is the #1 priority on the team. Defenses are planned around stopping Egonu, not Hill.
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Post by jwvolley on Apr 19, 2020 8:27:01 GMT -5
I'm confused by this argument. what do Egonu (opp) and Wolosz (setter) have to do with Hill's abilities as an OH? Well one of them sets the ball for her and the other one is the #1 priority on the team. Defenses are planned around stopping Egonu, not Hill. I mean when Egonu is across the net I don't think it really matters who the OH is. I don't feel like you can hold that against Hill. You seemed to be using the argument that her being #3 on her own team disqualifies her from being one of the top few OH in the world. I don't think that's fair considering her setter and opp happen to be the best (Wolosz for sure, Egonu vs. Boskovic is debated) at their respective positions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 8:38:08 GMT -5
Well one of them sets the ball for her and the other one is the #1 priority on the team. Defenses are planned around stopping Egonu, not Hill. I mean when Egonu is across the net I don't think it really matters who the OH is. I don't feel like you can hold that against Hill. You seemed to be using the argument that her being #3 on her own team disqualifies her from being one of the top few OH in the world. I don't think that's fair considering her setter and opp happen to be the best (Wolosz for sure, Egonu vs. Boskovic is debated) at their respective positions. I'm not using it as evidence that she isn't the third best, I'm just saying it's not proof she is. And using her team's success as evidence when she plays on the best team in pro volleyball (and she's NOT the star of that team) isn't proof either. I stated my case for KYK based on her international performance because, simply put, this is a conversation about USA players vs their counterparts around the world. If KYK gained American citizenship tomorrow and wanted to play for Karch, do you honestly believe Kim Hill keeps her from starting? I don't. And what is Hill better at than KYK? The Korean is a more dominant hitter with a bigger fan, has a better touch when passing (even though her technique is frequently questionable) and she's a better blocker. Hill has a really good serve which I've noted, but other than that, what are you seeing that makes her a top 3 OH in the world?
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Post by jwvolley on Apr 19, 2020 8:47:21 GMT -5
I mean when Egonu is across the net I don't think it really matters who the OH is. I don't feel like you can hold that against Hill. You seemed to be using the argument that her being #3 on her own team disqualifies her from being one of the top few OH in the world. I don't think that's fair considering her setter and opp happen to be the best (Wolosz for sure, Egonu vs. Boskovic is debated) at their respective positions. I'm not using it as evidence that she isn't the third best, I'm just saying it's not proof she is. And using her team's success as evidence when she plays on the best team in pro volleyball (and she's NOT the star of that team) isn't proof either. Got it. That's where my confusion was as to what your point was. For the record, I too am still inclined to think KYK is right behind Zhu. I was just making sure you weren't trying to make the argument that "You can't be among the best violinists if you play with the best cellist and best pianist"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 8:58:13 GMT -5
I'm not using it as evidence that she isn't the third best, I'm just saying it's not proof she is. And using her team's success as evidence when she plays on the best team in pro volleyball (and she's NOT the star of that team) isn't proof either. Got it. That's where my confusion was as to what your point was. For the record, I too am still inclined to think KYK is right behind Zhu. I was just making sure you weren't trying to make the argument that "You can't be among the best violinists if you play with the best cellist and best pianist" I agree, but again, I didn't bring up Conegliano in the first place. "Because I play with the best cellist and pianist" also isn't evidence that you are the best violinist. I usually try to avoid making arguments around here with zero corroborating data. I'd actually have Larson above Hill too (because her hitting and passing are more consistent and she's a better blocker).
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 19, 2020 9:08:39 GMT -5
The underlying argument to bringing up Conegliano is whether Hill (or Larson) play better with their respective clubs than with their National Team.
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 9:15:09 GMT -5
Okay. I think Larson and Hill are and I think Carlini and Ogbogu could be. MBH and Robinson are probably top-10. Plummer should be entering her third summer starting on the national team, but isn't, so we can't count her. Not in any order, my opinion of the top OHs in the world: Natalia, Mihajlovic, Zhu Ting, Larson, Hill, Robinson, Barstch, Martinez, KYK. Sylla and Plak are in the conversation, on any given day. Buijs, Pietrini, that one from Turkey, the L2 for China probably make up the next tier. Ok this is interesting. Thanks for taking the question in the way it was intended. So you'd say Larson and Hill are top 10? I can't see them top 3. Is Carlini top 3? Is Ogbogu? Why top 3? Gold, silver, bronze. Everyone has this idea that through the NCAA we produce the best players but I don't know that we have a single player that's top 3 in their position right now. What outside in the world has a more complete game than Larson right now? There are plenty that are bigger and better hitters but not better defenders, passers, blockers. Her package is too good.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 9:16:31 GMT -5
The underlying argument to bringing up Conegliano is whether Hill (or Larson) play better with their clubs than with their National Team. It actually wasn't. The argument that was made by @allamerican11 (with no supporting evidence) was that 'Club Hill' is the third best OH on earth. You can tell because if you go back a couple pages, he says it. I haven't disputed that Hill plays better for Conegliano than USA (though I'd imagine the fact that she has a better supporting cast and lower quality opponents helps)... I haven't disputed it because it's got no bearing on my initial question.
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 9:19:37 GMT -5
Wish we could see this on a regular basis for USA again This is what you really want to see again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 9:20:54 GMT -5
Ok this is interesting. Thanks for taking the question in the way it was intended. So you'd say Larson and Hill are top 10? I can't see them top 3. Is Carlini top 3? Is Ogbogu? Why top 3? Gold, silver, bronze. Everyone has this idea that through the NCAA we produce the best players but I don't know that we have a single player that's top 3 in their position right now. What outside in the world has a more complete game than Larson right now? There are plenty that are bigger and better hitters but not better defenders, passers, blockers. Her package is too good. I agree that Larson is a great all around player. But so is KYK. I posted their respective performances in the World Cup; it's hard to argue that Larson was better at anything. And with OHs you always have to come back to how good they are offensively if there's a tiebreaker. Larson isn't on the same level as Zhu or KYK in regards to terminal ability.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 19, 2020 9:22:15 GMT -5
The underlying argument to bringing up Conegliano is whether Hill (or Larson) play better with their clubs than with their National Team. It actually wasn't. The argument that was made by @allamerican11 (with no supporting evidence) was that 'Club Hill' is the third best OH on earth. You can tell because if you go back a couple pages, he says it. I haven't disputed that Hill plays better for Conegliano than USA (though I'd imagine the fact that she has a better supporting cast and lower quality opponents helps)... I haven't disputed it because it's got no bearing on my initial question. I wasn't repeating his argument. I was making (or suggesting) one.
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 9:27:28 GMT -5
What outside in the world has a more complete game than Larson right now? There are plenty that are bigger and better hitters but not better defenders, passers, blockers. Her package is too good. I agree that Larson is a great all around player. But so is KYK. I posted their respective performances in the World Cup; it's hard to argue that Larson was better at anything. And with OHs you always have to come back to how good they are offensively if there's a tiebreaker. Larson isn't on the same level as Zhu or KYK in regards to terminal ability. Maybe, it's pretty close. I guess I'd say KYK is the better attacker of the two. Regardless it's: 1 Zhu 2-3 Larson or KYK on any given day.
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