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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 14:42:43 GMT -5
Genuine question; did you get a chance to watch the 2019 World Cup? I didn't think she was mediocre at all. She hit .350 and terminated 44% of her swings. She hit nearly .400 in wins over Serbia & Japan. I did not see her in the World Cup. Mostly, I've been watching her play for her Turkish club team. That's cool. Give them a watch if you get a chance - I went through the Brazil one last night. She's definitely still a force.
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Post by donut on Apr 19, 2020 14:52:38 GMT -5
Lol what does a back row/right side/left side breakdown prove when discussing OHs and OPPs. You do realize OPPs and OHs can hit out of all three of those locations? And now you’re the one attacking a straw man. I never said an opposite wouldn’t get more swings than any other hitter in-system. I said proportionally, I think they get even more swings OOS than in-system (for example, 40% of the teams swings in-system, 60% of the teams swings OOS). Intuitively this makes sense because often the middles aren’t available OOS, and again, OPPs’ role is to terminate. On average, I’m sure OHs % of swings increases too, but probably by not as much. You said good teams don't go left OOS. See? Good international teams, in general, do not systematically send balls to the left OOS. They go left a large amount of the time. Are you backing off that statement now? My issue was with your claim that terminating OOS balls is the PRIMARY job of an Oppo. That isn't the case. Their primary job (as I stated) is terminating IN SYSTEM balls. Out of system you cannot make that claim (and be correct) but I can keep on bringing up matches to show you the distribution if you still can't acknowledge that your initial statement, and the above one, were wrong. Can you answer a very simple question for me: What are the breakdowns in the Poland and Italy match for OOS swings by hitter?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:01:55 GMT -5
Got it. That's where my confusion was as to what your point was. For the record, I too am still inclined to think KYK is right behind Zhu. I was just making sure you weren't trying to make the argument that "You can't be among the best violinists if you play with the best cellist and best pianist" I agree, but again, I didn't bring up Conegliano in the first place. "Because I play with the best cellist and pianist" also isn't evidence that you are the best violinist. I usually try to avoid making arguments around here with zero corroborating data. I'd actually have Larson above Hill too (because her hitting and passing are more consistent and she's a better blocker). I didn’t say that Hill is one of the best OHs because she plays with one of the best setters and the best opposite. I said that sustained success in different locations (Italy and Turkey) playing for different coaches and with different teammates says a lot about the individual. Your attempt at a “gotcha” here is so comically bad. You have a very hard time following simple arguments. And I’m still waiting on numbers from CWCs. I guess the only logical conclusion is that you aren’t posting them because, again, it doesn’t fit your narrative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:04:52 GMT -5
You said good teams don't go left OOS. See? They go left a large amount of the time. Are you backing off that statement now? My issue was with your claim that terminating OOS balls is the PRIMARY job of an Oppo. That isn't the case. Their primary job (as I stated) is terminating IN SYSTEM balls. Out of system you cannot make that claim (and be correct) but I can keep on bringing up matches to show you the distribution if you still can't acknowledge that your initial statement, and the above one, were wrong. Can you answer a very simple question for me: What are the breakdowns in the Poland and Italy match for OOS swings by hitter? Sure. Once I show you that Egonu and Smarzek aren't taking all of the swings will you accept that your above two statements are incorrect? The reason I brought this up originally is because a true OOS terminator is something I think USA lacks and rather than getting to discuss that you've dragged us into the weeds with the ridiculous statement that the primary job of an Oppo is to terminate OOS balls. It's just plain false and you asked for evidence, so I'm giving it to you, but you have to be open enough to acknowledge it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:06:45 GMT -5
I agree, but again, I didn't bring up Conegliano in the first place. "Because I play with the best cellist and pianist" also isn't evidence that you are the best violinist. I usually try to avoid making arguments around here with zero corroborating data. I'd actually have Larson above Hill too (because her hitting and passing are more consistent and she's a better blocker). I didn’t say that Hill is one of the best OHs because she plays with one of the best setters and the best opposite. I said that sustained success in different locations (Italy and Turkey) playing for different coaches and with different teammates says a lot about the individual. Your attempt at a “gotcha” here is so comically bad. You have a very hard time following simple arguments. And I’m still waiting on numbers from CWCs. I guess the only logical conclusion is that you aren’t posting them because, again, it doesn’t fit your narrative. I'm not statting an entire competition for you because you're unwilling to accept the (better - a recent tournament in which the principles all played) comparison I've already given you. You want to prove that "Club Hill" (lol what even is that?) is the third best OH in the world? Cool. Prove it if you can.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 19, 2020 15:10:33 GMT -5
When was the last time “libero” appeared in a post in this thread?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:16:17 GMT -5
I didn’t say that Hill is one of the best OHs because she plays with one of the best setters and the best opposite. I said that sustained success in different locations (Italy and Turkey) playing for different coaches and with different teammates says a lot about the individual. Your attempt at a “gotcha” here is so comically bad. You have a very hard time following simple arguments. And I’m still waiting on numbers from CWCs. I guess the only logical conclusion is that you aren’t posting them because, again, it doesn’t fit your narrative. I'm not statting an entire competition for you because you're unwilling to accept the (better - a recent tournament in which the principles all played) comparison I've already given you. You want to prove that "Club Hill" (lol what even is that?) is the third best OH in the world? Cool. Prove it if you can. 1. I have no intention of proving it. It’s my opinion that I was asked to provide. You’re the one disputing my opinion. I think Hill has been a better, more successful player over the last 8 years than KYK has. 2. The competition isn’t already statted...? 3. And WC numbers aren’t “better” just because all three athletes attended the event. As stated previously (which you ignored, as you frequently do when your argument has been shredded), Hill earned the least playing time of all four USA OHs in that event because she took most of the summer off. Not fair to use those numbers in her first event back. 4. Was KYK the leading scorer for Korea in the WC?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:23:16 GMT -5
You said good teams don't go left OOS. See? They go left a large amount of the time. Are you backing off that statement now? My issue was with your claim that terminating OOS balls is the PRIMARY job of an Oppo. That isn't the case. Their primary job (as I stated) is terminating IN SYSTEM balls. Out of system you cannot make that claim (and be correct) but I can keep on bringing up matches to show you the distribution if you still can't acknowledge that your initial statement, and the above one, were wrong. Can you answer a very simple question for me: What are the breakdowns in the Poland and Italy match for OOS swings by hitter? As I said before, 35 OOS attacks on the match, 16 by Italy, 19 by Poland. Italy: Sorokaite (#1), OH took 7 Sylla (#17), OH took 3 Egonu (#18), OPP took 6 Poland: Stysiak (#9), OH took 7 Medryzk (#16), OH took 5 Smarzek (#17), OPP took 7 Considering both Smarzek and Egonu led their teams in swings, they clearly weren't disproportionately favored OOS. In fact Sorokaite only took 19 swings total, compared to 35 for Egonu, but Sorokaite had the most OOS swings, mostly from the left. Smarzek had 34 swings, compared to 19 for Stysiak but they had the same amount OOS, all from the left. Can you tell me what this means, then we'll move on?
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Post by Murina on Apr 19, 2020 15:31:27 GMT -5
While the numbers say that 2 OH's get more OoS swings than 1 OP, I think some of the argument comes down to general philosophy.
In Europe & Brazil, I think most high level coaches would say that the OP is there to score points - in & out of system - and to shut down an opposing outside hitter.
In Asia, the opposite's main job has historically been a ball handling, in-system attacking role.
It matters in how players are created. If Egonu had grown up in China I suspect we would be seeing her on the left now, and if Zhu had grown up in Europe she would probably be an OP as a professional. If Lucia Bosetti had grown up in China or Japan I think there is a fair argument that she might be playing OP now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:31:48 GMT -5
I'm not statting an entire competition for you because you're unwilling to accept the (better - a recent tournament in which the principles all played) comparison I've already given you. You want to prove that "Club Hill" (lol what even is that?) is the third best OH in the world? Cool. Prove it if you can. 1. I have no intention of proving it. It’s my opinion that I was asked to provide. You’re the one disputing my opinion. I think Hill has been a better, more successful player over the last 8 years than KYK has. 2. The competition isn’t already statted...? 3. And WC numbers aren’t “better” just because all three athletes attended the event. As stated previously (which you ignored, as you frequently do when your argument has been shredded), Hill earned the least playing time of all four USA OHs in that event because she took most of the summer off. Not fair to use those numbers in her first event back. 4. Was KYK the leading scorer for Korea in the WC? I'm not ignoring your claim that Hill taking time off invalidates her performance. I read it and gave it exactly as much attention as it deserved. She was fresh, she played, she hit .200 and terminated 34%. That's only slightly below her career average for USA. We're talking about the USA roster for Tokyo. If you want to talk about Hill in Italy or Turkey over the last 8 years, that's your call. But I'm not looking up data to support an argument which has nothing to do with what's being discussed. Do your own research if you want to support that opinion with some evidence.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Apr 19, 2020 15:33:44 GMT -5
When was the last time “libero” appeared in a post in this thread? If I’m following correctly they’re arguing about whether Hill or KYK should be the next USA libero.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:34:21 GMT -5
While the numbers say that 2 OH's get more OoS swings than 1 OP, I think some of the argument comes down to general philosophy. In Europe & Brazil, I think most high level coaches would say that the OP is there to score points - in & out of system - and to shut down an opposing outside hitter. In Asia, the opposite's main job has historically been a ball handling, in-system attacking role. It matters in how players are created. If Egonu had grown up in China I suspect we would be seeing her on the left now, and if Zhu had grown up in Europe she would probably be an OP as a professional. If Lucia Bosetti had grown up in China or Japan I think there is a fair argument that she might be playing OP now. Agree with almost all of this, except the numbers don't show the combined OH hit more. They show that one OH either hit more OOS balls (Italy) or the same number (Poland). And those are two of the best Oppos in the game. Again, I'm not saying Oppos can't get set OOS. But to say it's their primary job (even if offenses that feature them) is just wrong.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Apr 19, 2020 15:36:00 GMT -5
When was the last time “libero” appeared in a post in this thread? If I’m following correctly they’re arguing about whether Hill or KYK should be the next USA libero. Haha
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:41:39 GMT -5
1. I have no intention of proving it. It’s my opinion that I was asked to provide. You’re the one disputing my opinion. I think Hill has been a better, more successful player over the last 8 years than KYK has. 2. The competition isn’t already statted...? 3. And WC numbers aren’t “better” just because all three athletes attended the event. As stated previously (which you ignored, as you frequently do when your argument has been shredded), Hill earned the least playing time of all four USA OHs in that event because she took most of the summer off. Not fair to use those numbers in her first event back. 4. Was KYK the leading scorer for Korea in the WC? We're talking about the USA roster for Tokyo. We weren’t. We were talking about the next best OHs after Zhu. You chose to report numbers that support your argument and are unwilling to report numbers that don’t (you have the advantage here since you know that even the diehard fans don’t have access to VM). You’re so much worse at building and following an argument than you think you are. Delusion - convince yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 15:47:30 GMT -5
We're talking about the USA roster for Tokyo. We weren’t. We were talking about the next best OHs after Zhu. You chose to report numbers that support your argument and are unwilling to report numbers that don’t (you have the advantage here since you know that even the diehard fans don’t have access to VM). You’re so much worse at building and following an argument than you think you are. Delusion - convince yourself. Haha, I'm not hiding Hills club stats from you because she hit .600 and terminated 64%. I cba to look them up because even IF she did hit .600, she isn't on the same level as Zhu, KYK or Larson at the Olympic level (I don't think even you would claim she is). That's the reason I posted the World Cup stats. Since you refused to engage with them, there's nothing for us to discuss. I'm not sure why you're struggling with that. I understand your viewpoint; I just don't think it's relevant. It's like someone stating that 'xyz' is the best OH in D1 and you saying "show me their high school stats or you're wrong". It's just not helpful to the discussion (which I think most of us are on the same page with).
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