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Post by n00b on Aug 2, 2020 14:15:43 GMT -5
"Abuse" is one of those things that is hard to pin down. Different people draw different lines in different places. I once saw a female coach smack a player on the behind after a serving error, for example. If a male coach did that? Fired. Trolling can be entertaining, but in this thread it makes you look extremely tacky. If that’s what you’re going for, congrats, you’ve succeeded. Is that the attention you want here?? Will you stop now that we’ve acknowledged your lack of tact or ability to ‘read the room?’ Debating what is/should be considered abuse while providing an example to show that context is extremely important isn’t trolling.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 14:19:17 GMT -5
Trolling can be entertaining, but in this thread it makes you look extremely tacky. If that’s what you’re going for, congrats, you’ve succeeded. Is that the attention you want here?? Will you stop now that we’ve acknowledged your lack of tact or ability to ‘read the room?’ Debating what is/should be considered abuse while providing an example to show that context is extremely important isn’t trolling. I wasn’t referring to one single post.
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Post by cindra on Aug 2, 2020 14:35:00 GMT -5
Of course, the classic student section chirp of "Do solo reps of a drill in front of the team until you're way past your jump limit" and "I'm going to recruit you with promises of four years and then cut your scholarship after a year". I was shouting those at the other team just last fall. I'm sure glad that coaches were wise to that and got out ahead of it.
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Post by bigjohn043 on Aug 2, 2020 14:38:28 GMT -5
It's merely a question. I ask, because I have no idea. Maybe some club teams are insanely demanding as well. Perhaps there are varsity teams that are like "congrats, you made it to D1. You already know what it takes to compete at a high level. Now go out there and have fun." I don't know. Most high level athletes want to be pushed to their limits. Nobody wants to be pushed beyond their limits. This is the trick right. What exactly are their limits. Often, a players view of their limits might be very different from reality. Have you ever read "A Season on the Brink"? This coach hasn't done 10% of what Bob Knight does in the first chapter. There is a great scene where Steve Alford talks about pushing himself. As a very good player, he could still be very good only playing at 90% of his potential. He thought he was playing hard but he really wasn't. It took Coach Knight pushing him (in some often brutal ways) to really play at 100%. Some of the scenes are draw dropping. You wonder why players would put up with it. The year after the season described in the book they won the national title. And they did it with not a single player that ever even became a starter in the NBA. That style is certainly not for everyone. But what about players that really want to be pushed? Are they allowed to have that? Any kind of pushing style will inevitably seem like abuse for someone that really doesn't want to be pushed. Then we come to these articles. Inevitably, these articles relate incidences from the point of view of a couple of players who did not appreciate the methods of the coach. Just remember that they are one sided and the coach cannot say anything. I loved playing for coaches that yelled, screamed and pushed me. It got me fired up. What routinely happened in the 80s would today be called abuse. I am not sure that is a step forward. Just to be clear, I have no idea what happened here. The AD should clearly investigate. But if they do an investigation and determine the coach did nothing wrong, then we should accept that. Just because the AD doesn't agree with some players who may not fit with the coach does not mean they are white-washing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 14:43:56 GMT -5
Of course, the classic student section chirp of "Do solo reps of a drill in front of the team until you're way past your jump limit" and "I'm going to recruit you with promises of four years and then cut your scholarship after a year". I was shouting those at the other team just last fall. I'm sure glad that coaches were wise to that and got out ahead of it. I wonder from which student section my coach at age 13 learned his motivational student section cheers of “this team would be better off if you jumped off a bridge over land tonight” and “you will never be good enough, so why do you even try? and “do you disappoint your family this much on a regular basis?” And “you’ll know pain before we leave here today” and “stop pretending your ankle just broke and suck it up?” And I wonder where my coach at age 14 first heard the cheer, “if you really want to make an impact on this team you’ll meet me at the gym alone and have private lessons” with the apparently implied “and at the end of the private lesson we should both take a shower in the locker room so we don’t have to worry about it after we leave.” 🤷🏼♂️ I quit playing any sport at age 15. I guess I just didn’t want to be pushed hard enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 14:46:46 GMT -5
PS, “how will we know where someone’s limits are without abusing them?” is quite an awful take.
Yes, there is a thin line where at some point it’s abuse or it isn’t.
A skilled coach will find that line without having to cross it.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Aug 2, 2020 14:56:54 GMT -5
If you find yourself needing to positively reference Bob Knight's coaching style, just step away from the keyboard.
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Post by Riviera Minestrone on Aug 2, 2020 15:07:33 GMT -5
Most high level athletes want to be pushed to their limits. Nobody wants to be pushed beyond their limits. This is the trick right. What exactly are their limits. Often, a players view of their limits might be very different from reality. Have you ever read "A Season on the Brink"? This coach hasn't done 10% of what Bob Knight does in the first chapter. There is a great scene where Steve Alford talks about pushing himself. As a very good player, he could still be very good only playing at 90% of his potential. He thought he was playing hard but he really wasn't. It took Coach Knight pushing him (in some often brutal ways) to really play at 100%. Some of the scenes are draw dropping. You wonder why players would put up with it. The year after the season described in the book they won the national title. And they did it with not a single player that ever even became a starter in the NBA. That style is certainly not for everyone. But what about players that really want to be pushed? Are they allowed to have that? Any kind of pushing style will inevitably seem like abuse for someone that really doesn't want to be pushed. Then we come to these articles. Inevitably, these articles relate incidences from the point of view of a couple of players who did not appreciate the methods of the coach. Just remember that they are one sided and the coach cannot say anything. I loved playing for coaches that yelled, screamed and pushed me. It got me fired up. What routinely happened in the 80s would today be called abuse. I am not sure that is a step forward. Just to be clear, I have no idea what happened here. The AD should clearly investigate. But if they do an investigation and determine the coach did nothing wrong, then we should accept that. Just because the AD doesn't agree with some players who may not fit with the coach does not mean they are white-washing. Usually I am "right there" with your posts, big john: this one I disagree with. I was a multiple letter winner and a university athlete. You probably know this: jocks hit both "walls" and "zones", both in training-practice and in direct competition. My best coaches would keep encouraging me, when I felt stymied with my various walls; they'd also know enough to leave me the f--- alone when in my zone (PG in BB)! I had one semi-screamer/drill sergeant type as a coach. His teams lacked enthusiasm..
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Post by bigjohn043 on Aug 2, 2020 15:27:27 GMT -5
This is the trick right. What exactly are their limits. Often, a players view of their limits might be very different from reality. Have you ever read "A Season on the Brink"? This coach hasn't done 10% of what Bob Knight does in the first chapter. There is a great scene where Steve Alford talks about pushing himself. As a very good player, he could still be very good only playing at 90% of his potential. He thought he was playing hard but he really wasn't. It took Coach Knight pushing him (in some often brutal ways) to really play at 100%. Some of the scenes are draw dropping. You wonder why players would put up with it. The year after the season described in the book they won the national title. And they did it with not a single player that ever even became a starter in the NBA. That style is certainly not for everyone. But what about players that really want to be pushed? Are they allowed to have that? Any kind of pushing style will inevitably seem like abuse for someone that really doesn't want to be pushed. Then we come to these articles. Inevitably, these articles relate incidences from the point of view of a couple of players who did not appreciate the methods of the coach. Just remember that they are one sided and the coach cannot say anything. I loved playing for coaches that yelled, screamed and pushed me. It got me fired up. What routinely happened in the 80s would today be called abuse. I am not sure that is a step forward. Just to be clear, I have no idea what happened here. The AD should clearly investigate. But if they do an investigation and determine the coach did nothing wrong, then we should accept that. Just because the AD doesn't agree with some players who may not fit with the coach does not mean they are white-washing. Usually I am "right there" with your posts, big john: this one I disagree with. I was a multiple letter winner and a university athlete. You probably know this: jocks hit both "walls" and "zones", both in training-practice and in direct competition. My best coaches would keep encouraging me, when I felt stymied with my various walls; they'd also know enough to leave me the f--- alone when in my zone (PG in BB)! I had one semi-screamer/drill sergeant type as a coach. His teams lacked enthusiasm.. I hear you. I used Bob Knight as an example because he is so far out there in terms of his methods. OTOH, he also had incredible success that it is pretty hard to deny. Certainly not for everyone. I think your description of walls and zones is correct. And some people don't want to be pushed through their walls and want to be encouraged. I certainly found it helpful to be yelled at. Maybe it is just me but I think lots of people are like that. Just my opinion....
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Post by Brutus Buckeye on Aug 2, 2020 16:19:26 GMT -5
Assuming that you have never coached. But you would make a good cheerleader. No, I think we just may be thinking in different degrees of severity in regards to “beyond their limits.” I don’t meant they don’t want to be trained hard - even until they feel sick at the end of a workout. I’m not talking about never getting upset or whatever I’m referring to not wanting to be pushed to the point of 25% of the number of scholarshipped athletes considering suicide. I just mean that you can train an athlete to succeed without abusing them. That doesn't automatically mean abuse. A person that age might consider suicide after getting dumped. It doesn't mean that they were abused. A person might consider suicide after they bombed a midterm. Doesn't mean they were abused. A player might consider suicide if they don't crack the starting lineup. Doesn't mean that they were abused.
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Post by n00b on Aug 2, 2020 16:23:58 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I have no idea what happened here. The AD should clearly investigate. But if they do an investigation and determine the coach did nothing wrong, then we should accept that. Just because the AD doesn't agree with some players who may not fit with the coach does not mean they are white-washing. I'm with you. We'll never know the details of what exactly happened because we weren't there and privacy laws allow one side to go to the press while the other side stays silent. But there already was an investigation:
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Post by redbeard2008 on Aug 2, 2020 19:43:43 GMT -5
I didn't realize the Pac-12 doesn't require 4-year guaranteed scholarships. I guess each school can make that decision for themselves? Some coaches offer 0-3 deals (one-year walkon, 3-year scholarship), which become one-year deals that can be canceled. Financial aid agreements offered to incoming athletes will be "for no less than four academic years". Unless you get nothing as an incoming frosh.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Aug 2, 2020 19:55:04 GMT -5
These are examples of what we should all already know. People are multidimensional. We're both good sometimes and bad at other times. We're vicious at times and kind-hearted at other times. We volunteer to do the most mind-numbing mundane chores some days, and other days, I can't get my arse off the couch and my wife yells at me. Some days, I am very nice on VT and other days, I stick forks and knives on a variety of VT voodoo dolls I've made of each and every one of you. I satisfy myself with purely "mental" dolls that I can "chop up, like the Saudis do", as many times as I like. No need to even get off the couch.
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Post by n00b on Aug 2, 2020 19:57:57 GMT -5
I didn't realize the Pac-12 doesn't require 4-year guaranteed scholarships. I guess each school can make that decision for themselves? Some coaches offer 0-3 deals (one-year walkon, 3-year scholarship), which become one-year deals that can be canceled. Financial aid agreements offered to incoming athletes will be "for no less than four academic years". Unless you get nothing as an incoming frosh. This really doesn't seem to be the case based on this article. So she signed her NLI and was on scholarship as a freshman, but then had her scholarship pulled in April.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Aug 2, 2020 20:40:42 GMT -5
Some coaches offer 0-3 deals (one-year walkon, 3-year scholarship), which become one-year deals that can be canceled. Financial aid agreements offered to incoming athletes will be "for no less than four academic years". Unless you get nothing as an incoming frosh. This really doesn't seem to be the case based on this article. So she signed her NLI and was on scholarship as a freshman, but then had her scholarship pulled in April. That would seem to be against Pac-12 policy. John Cook tried something similar with Madi Endsley - switching her four-year offer to a one-year offer very late in the game. Technically, they could promise her a one-year scholarship, but which would be awarded only after being enrolled and on-campus. She'd essentially be a walk-on who was only then awarded a one-year "extra" scholarship.
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