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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 11, 2021 20:41:16 GMT -5
I would much rather be a Senator than do my current job.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 7:35:52 GMT -5
Bringing this back to the minimum wage law on the table and the current discussion on the role of the Senate (or Congress). Pew Research polls shows that 67% of Americans support increasing the minimum wage law to $15 per hour. www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/06/PP_2019.06.19_Political-Discourse_TOPLINE.pdfBut then the question posed by Pew is biased. They do not ask if the respondent knows that the CBO claims that 1.4M people would lose their job if this is raised. The poll answer would likely be much different if the poll question said, 'Do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour if this means that 1.4M workers will lose their job'. Or, 'The CBO has concluded that raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour will cost 1.4M people their job, do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage...' The reason we have a Senate or congress - they are much more knowledgeable on potential legislation than the vast majority of the American people. I would guess that a small % of the respondents to the PEW question know about what the CBO said. Probably few even know who the CBO is? 100% of the Senators have seen the CBO report on the minimum wage. This is why we elect them - to make their determination on what is best based on much greater information.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 8:28:41 GMT -5
Bringing this back to the minimum wage law on the table and the current discussion on the role of the Senate (or Congress). Pew Research polls shows that 67% of Americans support increasing the minimum wage law to $15 per hour. www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/06/PP_2019.06.19_Political-Discourse_TOPLINE.pdfBut then the question posed by Pew is biased. They do not ask if the respondent knows that the CBO claims that 1.4M people would lose their job if this is raised. The poll answer would likely be much different if the poll question said, 'Do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour if this means that 1.4M workers will lose their job'. Or, 'The CBO has concluded that raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour will cost 1.4M people their job, do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage...' The polling questions don't mention 900k people lifted out of poverty or 27 million americans having their incomes increased either, so what's your point? "Do you favor or oppose raising the minimum wage to $15/hr" is about as unbiased a question as you can get. Also, the CBO report you're referencing literally did not exist 18 months ago when the poll you linked was conducted.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 8:36:06 GMT -5
Bringing this back to the minimum wage law on the table and the current discussion on the role of the Senate (or Congress). Pew Research polls shows that 67% of Americans support increasing the minimum wage law to $15 per hour. www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/06/PP_2019.06.19_Political-Discourse_TOPLINE.pdfBut then the question posed by Pew is biased. They do not ask if the respondent knows that the CBO claims that 1.4M people would lose their job if this is raised. The poll answer would likely be much different if the poll question said, 'Do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour if this means that 1.4M workers will lose their job'. Or, 'The CBO has concluded that raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour will cost 1.4M people their job, do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage...' The polling questions don't mention 900k people lifted out of poverty or 27 million americans having their incomes increased either, so what's your point? "Do you favor or oppose raising the minimum wage to $15/hr" is about as unbiased a question as you can get. Yes - we are asking a poll to people that have just a fraction of the information and acting like this means everything. While a group of people in congress have something much closer to 100% of the information - and this is the reason why Congress makes decisions based (in some part) what they think is right, not just what a poll says. And this doesn't get into how poll questions are usually flawed by the bias in the question and sometimes a very poor way to gauge public opinion.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 8:44:44 GMT -5
The polling questions don't mention 900k people lifted out of poverty or 27 million americans having their incomes increased either, so what's your point? "Do you favor or oppose raising the minimum wage to $15/hr" is about as unbiased a question as you can get. Yes - we are asking a poll to people that have just a fraction of the information and acting like this means everything. While a group of people in congress have something much closer to 100% of the information - and this is the reason why Congress makes decisions based (in some part) what they think is right, not just what a poll says. And this doesn't get into how poll questions are usually flawed by the bias in the question and sometimes a very poor way to gauge public opinion. Do you think people are that stupid? They can't think critically about a subject long enough to form a valid opinion? That they might think to themselves "raising the minimum wage will increase expenses for businesses and possibly cost jobs, but also mean that lots more people make more money" and decide that's a trade-off they're willing to accept? This also assumes a) this CBO report is correct and b) elected officials believe it or even care what it says.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 9:40:06 GMT -5
Yes - we are asking a poll to people that have just a fraction of the information and acting like this means everything. While a group of people in congress have something much closer to 100% of the information - and this is the reason why Congress makes decisions based (in some part) what they think is right, not just what a poll says. And this doesn't get into how poll questions are usually flawed by the bias in the question and sometimes a very poor way to gauge public opinion. Do you think people are that stupid? They can't think critically about a subject long enough to form a valid opinion? That they might think to themselves "raising the minimum wage will increase expenses for businesses and possibly cost jobs, but also mean that lots more people make more money" and decide that's a trade-off they're willing to accept? This also assumes a) this CBO report is correct and b) elected officials believe it or even care what it says. I am just illustrating why I believe just using public polling is not a good way to govern - that it works much better when a smaller number of elected officials are determining stuff based on much more information. On the surface - why would anyone be opposed to increasing the minimum wage? The answer is that there are tradeoffs (some people getting more money while others lose their job). Yes, I believe most people don't factor those tradeoffs when responding to a poll - they are lacking a lot of information. Circa 2002 - maybe 85% of the US population thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq (or at least as many as support minimum wage increase). There were some senators that opposed. Were they going rogue against public opinion or did they have more information that made this a valid choice as opposed to automatically assuming that invading Iraq was a good idea. Public opinion usually lacks enough information to make those kinds of decisions. I would much prefer Senators to act on their own opinion of what they think is best instead of just reacting to current opinion polling. They hold office for 6 years - and if their constituency thinks they made poor decisions, they get voted out. At least that is how it should work IMO.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 9:52:20 GMT -5
I am just illustrating why I believe just using public polling is not a good way to govern - that it works much better when a smaller number of elected officials are determining stuff based on much more information. The fact minimum wage increases are (incredibly) popular is a supporting argument for doing it. We should do it because it's morally right. We can guarantee something much closer to a living wage. Evidence to support this belief? This comparison makes sense if the executive branch spent months fabricating evidence and lying to convince the public a minimum wage increase would benefit people. That *is* how it works. It's not like there's been a sudden swell of support for increasing the minimum wage. The Fight for 15 movement is almost a decade old and has broad public support across party lines. Bernie Sanders didn't just cook this up last week.
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 10:28:01 GMT -5
A small number of enlightened libertarians got a country to run back in the 70s and 80s. Didn't go well.
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Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 10:41:07 GMT -5
Biased? Yikes, blue. I didn't think we needed to explain what that word means to you. Nothing about that question is biased.
It's pretty convenient for your worldview to assume that with more information, public support would go down for the minimum wage. I'm going to nip that assumption in the bud -- I don't buy it.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 11:15:21 GMT -5
A small number of enlightened libertarians got a country to run back in the 70s and 80s. Didn't go well. It was good for the helicopter industry, though.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 11:32:28 GMT -5
Biased? Yikes, blue. I didn't think we needed to explain what that word means to you. Nothing about that question is biased. It's pretty convenient for your worldview to assume that with more information, public support would go down for the minimum wage. I'm going to nip that assumption in the bud -- I don't buy it. Is this questioned biased: The CBO says that increasing the minimum wage to $15 will cost 1.4M jobs, do you favor increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour. I would be shocked if the answer to this question would be similar to the one that doesn't have that beginning.
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Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 11:40:59 GMT -5
Biased? Yikes, blue. I didn't think we needed to explain what that word means to you. Nothing about that question is biased. It's pretty convenient for your worldview to assume that with more information, public support would go down for the minimum wage. I'm going to nip that assumption in the bud -- I don't buy it. Is this questioned biased: The CBO says that increasing the minimum wage to $15 will cost 1.4M jobs, do you favor increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour. I would be shocked if the answer to this question would be similar to the one that doesn't have that beginning. Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not.
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Post by oldnewbie on Feb 12, 2021 12:01:31 GMT -5
I would much rather be a Senator than do my current job. Depends. Am I allowed to keep my job while acting ethically in the best interest of my country, or do I have to go all Cruz and Graham and kneel and lick the boot of an authoritarian xenophobic oligarch?
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Post by n00b on Feb 12, 2021 12:38:03 GMT -5
Is this questioned biased: The CBO says that increasing the minimum wage to $15 will cost 1.4M jobs, do you favor increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour. I would be shocked if the answer to this question would be similar to the one that doesn't have that beginning. Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. ‘Leading’ might not be the right word. But it’s only asking about the benefit side of a cost/benefit analysis. When Pew asks are you paying too much/right amount/too little in taxes, less than 5% say too little. When polled about universal healthcare, close to 40% want it to be a single national government program. I’m not saying a third of Americans are stupid necessarily but they aren’t talking the logical next step when answering these poll questions.
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Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 13:07:16 GMT -5
Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. I’m not saying a third of Americans are stupid necessarily but they aren’t talking the logical next step when answering these poll questions. Why are you assuming they aren't when you are (supposedly)?
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