|
Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 12, 2021 13:09:08 GMT -5
Whether people believe they're paying enough taxes also relates to what they get out of it. They may answer differently if it was in the context of having universal healthcare.
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Feb 12, 2021 13:27:37 GMT -5
I’m not saying a third of Americans are stupid necessarily but they aren’t talking the logical next step when answering these poll questions. Why are you assuming they aren't when you are (supposedly)? I'm just reading the poll data. Less than 5% of American say they believe they are paying too little in taxes. Yet they say yes to government services that couldn't possibly be funded simply by taxing the rich. There is a disconnect there. Also, that polling proves the point that @ruffda is making that politicians should do what's right and not simply react to polls, unless you think taxes should never be raised.
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Feb 12, 2021 13:29:31 GMT -5
Whether people believe they're paying enough taxes also relates to what they get out of it. They may answer differently if it was in the context of having universal healthcare. Yeah. That's the point. If you only ask 'should the government provide health care' people will say yes. If you ask 'should the government raise your taxes' people will say no. If you ask 'would you be willing to raise your tax rate by 7% in order to provide health care to all Americans', then you'd get a real answer.
|
|
|
Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 13:36:43 GMT -5
Why are you assuming they aren't when you are (supposedly)? I'm just reading the poll data. Less than 5% of American say they believe they are paying too little in taxes. Yet they say yes to government services that couldn't possibly be funded simply by taxing the rich. There is a disconnect there. Also, that polling proves the point that @ruffda is making that politicians should do what's right and not simply react to polls, unless you think taxes should never be raised. ... I don't think I'm paying too little in taxes. However, if presented with an option like universal healthcare, I would be in favor of it and be in favor of using taxes to fund it. It's called having complex thoughts, not a disconnect. FWIW, I don't think the taxes question is particularly valuable but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked. This polling certainly does not prove his point? I'm not sure how you made that leap, especially considering no one advocated that Senators should solely react to polls when making their decisions. And ironically to your point, there are plenty of policymakers who think that taxes should never be raised. It's also ironic that the board conservatives are blaming a lack of education on these poll responses. Individuals tend to become more liberal/progressive with more education, not more libertarian.
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Feb 12, 2021 14:28:09 GMT -5
It's also ironic that the board conservatives are blaming a lack of education on these poll responses. Individuals tend to become more liberal/progressive with more education, not more libertarian. I'm not making that claim. I'm saying when presented with a poll question, people usually respond with the answer that means - if this is true and nothing else changes, yes or no. For government services, it means they'll answer without consideration of their taxes going up. For taxes, it means they answer without considering the increased government services. The real debate involves nuance. Answering a poll doesn't (kinda by design).
|
|
|
Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 14:39:37 GMT -5
Ok, sure.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:15:22 GMT -5
Yes - we are asking a poll to people that have just a fraction of the information and acting like this means everything. While a group of people in congress have something much closer to 100% of the information - and this is the reason why Congress makes decisions based (in some part) what they think is right, not just what a poll says. And this doesn't get into how poll questions are usually flawed by the bias in the question and sometimes a very poor way to gauge public opinion. Do you think people are that stupid? They can't think critically about a subject long enough to form a valid opinion? That they might think to themselves "raising the minimum wage will increase expenses for businesses and possibly cost jobs, but also mean that lots more people make more money" and decide that's a trade-off they're willing to accept? This also assumes a) this CBO report is correct and b) elected officials believe it or even care what it says. LOL, because conservatives are often claiming that liberals think people are stupid and so want to hand all control over to "liberal elites", but here we see the flip side where blue thinks people are stupid and are not qualified to have an opinion on minimum wage laws (I guess unless they agree with him).
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:22:06 GMT -5
Biased? Yikes, blue. I didn't think we needed to explain what that word means to you. Nothing about that question is biased. It's pretty convenient for your worldview to assume that with more information, public support would go down for the minimum wage. I'm going to nip that assumption in the bud -- I don't buy it. Is this questioned biased: The CBO says that increasing the minimum wage to $15 will cost 1.4M jobs, do you favor increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour. I would be shocked if the answer to this question would be similar to the one that doesn't have that beginning. That is a classic example of a biased poll question. You are framing the question such that you are leading them to an answer. There are more subtle ways of biasing poll questions, too. Like I could ask the following: 1. Do you think that employers are less able to afford to hire employees if the minimum wage is high? 2. Do you think that unemployment would go down if employers could hire some workers for lower-than-minimum wages? 3. Do you think the minimum wage should be raised to $15? Then you only report the results of question 3.
|
|
bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016) All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team 2023
Posts: 12,938
|
Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:27:37 GMT -5
Is this questioned biased: The CBO says that increasing the minimum wage to $15 will cost 1.4M jobs, do you favor increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour. I would be shocked if the answer to this question would be similar to the one that doesn't have that beginning. Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. I find Pew's question to be biased - there lies the problem. Phrasing of the poll question impacts the results.
|
|
|
Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:30:00 GMT -5
Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. I find Pew's question to be biased - there lies the problem. Phrasing of the poll question impacts the results. How is it biased?
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:30:19 GMT -5
Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. I find Pew's question to be biased - there lies the problem. Phrasing of the poll question impacts the results. LOFingL. You are very much complaining that they are not biasing the question in the direction you favor.
|
|
|
Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 15:31:11 GMT -5
Yes, that is a leading question. Pew's question is not. I find Pew's question to be biased - there lies the problem. Phrasing of the poll question impacts the results. Pew's question isn't biased. Just because it doesn't include a 40-page report discussing the pros and cons of raising the minimum wage, doesn't make it biased. You're conflating bias with something else.
|
|
bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016) All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team 2023
Posts: 12,938
|
Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:31:28 GMT -5
School choice polls around 68% support. African Americans and Latinos support is higher - which makes sense since they have the most to gain from school choice. Now - question, is this poll question biased or does the Democratic party just not care about what the public thinks in terms of something as important as school choice? I 100% agree with the 68% that supports school choice - but I also recognize that this poll is biased. Phrasing something as a choice is always going to poll better than if phrased a different way. fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/2017-national-school-choice-poll
|
|
|
Post by donut on Feb 12, 2021 15:33:15 GMT -5
|
|
bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016) All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team 2023
Posts: 12,938
|
Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:34:26 GMT -5
I find Pew's question to be biased - there lies the problem. Phrasing of the poll question impacts the results. How is it biased? Just like the school choice question - framing something as a benefit (raising the minimum wage to $15 or giving parents a choice in the school their kid attends) is always going to poll better than when the question is framed with associated costs. It is biased IMO.
|
|