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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:37:46 GMT -5
School choice polls around 68% support. African Americans and Latinos support is higher - which makes sense since they have the most to gain from school choice. Now - question, is this poll question biased or does the Democratic party just not care about what the public thinks in terms of something as important as school choice? I 100% agree with the 68% that supports school choice - but I also recognize that this poll is biased. Phrasing something as a choice is always going to poll better than if phrased a different way. fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/2017-national-school-choice-pollWow, is that ever a useless question designed to dredge up a "yes" answer.... "School choice gives parents the right" (wording designed to get some yes votes) "to send their child to the public or private school" (wording designed to pull in people who want to choose which public school their kid can go to, and then use it to support taking money away from public schools and giving it to private schools)
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:38:57 GMT -5
Just like the school choice question - framing something as a benefit (raising the minimum wage to $15 or giving parents a choice in the school their kid attends) is always going to poll better than when the question is framed with associated costs. It is biased IMO. It's not framed as anything besides a change in law. Is the question "Would you support a minimum wage of $15 dollars, which would raise 1 million people out of poverty and increase the wages of 27 million more?" biased in your view? If so, why is that different than your negative framing?
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:39:46 GMT -5
I am amazed that someone who allegedly has a masters in economics has such a bad understanding of statistics and statistical bias.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:39:58 GMT -5
Poll these questions and see how they compare.
1) Do you believe in the right for a women to choose on reproductive rights.
2) Do you believe that a baby in the womb has a right to life.
Phrasing matters. Calling something Pro Choice is going to poll better than Pro Abortion. It is not an accident Abortion rights are usually referred to Pro Choice and not Pro Abortion.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:42:00 GMT -5
Since you brought it up, by the way:
Public schools are not about the parents. Nor are they even about the kids. They are about THE PUBLIC. We want to live in a society with an educated public, not a society where education is reserved for a privileged few. That's the purpose of public schools -- the provide a baseline level of education for the public.
That purpose is not only not served but is in fact opposed by sending public money to private schools.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:42:50 GMT -5
Just like the school choice question - framing something as a benefit (raising the minimum wage to $15 or giving parents a choice in the school their kid attends) is always going to poll better than when the question is framed with associated costs. It is biased IMO. It's not framed as anything besides a change in law. Is the question "Would you support a minimum wage of $15 dollars, which would raise 1 million people out of poverty and increase the wages of 27 million more?" biased in your view? If so, why is that different than your negative framing? All of the above are biased.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 15:43:26 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the constituency which benefits most from school choice is rich(ish) white people who now get to subsidize their kids' private school education with vouchers.
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:45:30 GMT -5
Poll these questions and see how they compare. 1) Do you believe in the right for a women to choose on reproductive rights. 2) Do you believe that a baby in the womb has a right to life. Phrasing matters. Calling something Pro Choice is going to poll better than Pro Abortion. It is not an accident Abortion rights are usually referred to Pro Choice and not Pro Abortion. Pew phrases it as: "I believe abortion should be: 1. Legal in most or all cases or 2. Illegal in most or all cases"
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:46:35 GMT -5
Since you brought it up, by the way: Public schools are not about the parents. Nor are they even about the kids. They are about THE PUBLIC. We want to live in a society with an educated public, not a society where education is reserved for a privileged few. That's the purpose of public schools -- the provide a baseline level of education for the public. That purpose is not only not served but is in fact opposed by sending public money to private schools. Again - I am not arguing for School Choice (which I support) or raising the minimum wage (which I marginally oppose) - I am arguing that just using public polling to determine policy is a dumb way to Govern. You seem to only want public polling to determine when you agree with the results? Or you can only find fault in the phrasing of the poll question when the public opinion is different than yours?
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:49:13 GMT -5
Poll these questions and see how they compare. 1) Do you believe in the right for a women to choose on reproductive rights. 2) Do you believe that a baby in the womb has a right to life. Phrasing matters. Calling something Pro Choice is going to poll better than Pro Abortion. It is not an accident Abortion rights are usually referred to Pro Choice and not Pro Abortion. Pew phrases it as: "I believe abortion should be: 1. Legal in most or all cases or 2. Illegal in most or all cases" Obviously some poll questions are better than others - but each is going to have *some* bias. There is almost no way to avoid it - other than something direct like, if you were to vote today, would you vote for (and list the candidates on the ballot).
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:49:36 GMT -5
Since you brought it up, by the way: Public schools are not about the parents. Nor are they even about the kids. They are about THE PUBLIC. We want to live in a society with an educated public, not a society where education is reserved for a privileged few. That's the purpose of public schools -- the provide a baseline level of education for the public. That purpose is not only not served but is in fact opposed by sending public money to private schools. Again - I am not arguing for School Choice (which I support) or raising the minimum wage (which I marginally oppose) - I am arguing that just using public polling to determine policy is a dumb way to Govern. You seem to only want public polling to determine when you agree with the results? Or you can only find fault in the phrasing of the poll question when the public opinion is different than yours? Ask even a high school statistics student and they'd tell you that the school choice question is biased while the minimum wage one isn't. Its a freebie question on the first quiz of the year.
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 12, 2021 15:51:49 GMT -5
Again - I am not arguing for School Choice (which I support) or raising the minimum wage (which I marginally oppose) - I am arguing that just using public polling to determine policy is a dumb way to Govern. You seem to only want public polling to determine when you agree with the results? Or you can only find fault in the phrasing of the poll question when the public opinion is different than yours? Ask even a high school statistics student and they'd tell you that the school choice question is biased while the minimum wage one isn't. Its a freebie question on the first quiz of the year. This shows a total lack of bias perspective - questions that poll different than what I believe are biased while those that poll similar to what I believe are not biased?
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 12, 2021 15:53:22 GMT -5
"Do you favor or oppose raising the federal minimum wage to $15.00 an hour?"
Please explain where the bias is in this question.
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Post by cindra on Feb 12, 2021 15:54:18 GMT -5
Ask even a high school statistics student and they'd tell you that the school choice question is biased while the minimum wage one isn't. Its a freebie question on the first quiz of the year. This shows a total lack of bias perspective - questions that poll different than what I believe are biased while those that poll similar to what I believe are not biased? It shows a basic understanding of how statistical bias/poll design work. You can probably find a free class online.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 12, 2021 15:54:43 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the constituency which benefits most from school choice is rich(ish) white people who now get to subsidize their kids' private school education with vouchers. That's actually arguable. I went to a private school that wasn't full of rich white kids. More like full of working class Catholic white kids. But yes, very much full of white kids. The really rich people don't need voucher money, and some of them wouldn't want kids that do need it to go to the school with their kids. The people who really want vouchers are those who aren't 1%ers but who want their kids going to a) a segregated school, b) a religious school, c) both, d) other. I believe my parents were in the "d) other" category when they sent me and my sister to a private Catholic school (where my mom taught), but I can't say for 100% certainty. I am fairly certain that they would have welcomed vouchers at the time.
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