bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 27, 2021 17:37:11 GMT -5
Great - it was through the Government power that we had legalized slavery and Jim Crow. And we want to grant credit to the Government for ending this... Are you trying to claim slavery was a government program? You're really smoking something. The problem with slavery is that it was a market the government didn't intervene in for too long (and not in the right ways). No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 27, 2021 17:39:41 GMT -5
Are you trying to claim slavery was a government program? You're really smoking something. The problem with slavery is that it was a market the government didn't intervene in for too long (and not in the right ways). No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem. Libertarian logic: it's not capitalism's fault when the government fails to restrain capitalism - but we shouldn't have government intervention in capitalism.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 27, 2021 17:45:14 GMT -5
Great - it was through the Government power that we had legalized slavery and Jim Crow. And we want to grant credit to the Government for ending this... Jim Crow was practiced before it was legalized, and it's been practiced since it was banned. Government didn't create it. But government did make it illegal, something that the free market never did. As I said, in a democratic system, governments tend to do what the voters want them to do. This is, of course, why voter suppression is a big deal -- something you also seek to deny the importance of. How do you have Jim Crow laws w/o the Government making those laws? And your racial voter suppression is a total crock. There is zero evidence of racial voter suppression in this country over the last several decades. Tell me the last time there was a single case where the voting rules were different for a black person than a white person? This actually used to happen in our US history - hasn't happened for a long, long time. Democratic governments do not supersede the constitution. The constitution by design should be protecting the minority (in voting terms).
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 27, 2021 17:50:55 GMT -5
No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem. Libertarian logic: it's not capitalism's fault when the government fails to restrain capitalism - but we shouldn't have government intervention in capitalism. Libertarian logic: The Government should apply the laws equally to all people and not pick and choose. Upholding life and property is vital for free markets to work. A Government that allows slavery, jim crow laws, etc... has miserably failed to protect the free market. Allowing some people to exploit the Government's failure to apply laws/the constitution equally (like slavery) is a fundamental problem created by the Government not free enterprise.
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Post by donut on Jun 27, 2021 17:52:09 GMT -5
No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem. Libertarian logic: it's not capitalism's fault when the government fails to restrain capitalism - but we shouldn't have government intervention in capitalism. Like holy f*ck at his logic right now.
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Post by cindra on Jun 27, 2021 17:52:36 GMT -5
Are you trying to claim slavery was a government program? You're really smoking something. The problem with slavery is that it was a market the government didn't intervene in for too long (and not in the right ways). No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem. Without government, what stops person A from enslaving person B anyway?
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Post by cindra on Jun 27, 2021 17:53:37 GMT -5
Jim Crow was practiced before it was legalized, and it's been practiced since it was banned. Government didn't create it. But government did make it illegal, something that the free market never did. As I said, in a democratic system, governments tend to do what the voters want them to do. This is, of course, why voter suppression is a big deal -- something you also seek to deny the importance of. How do you have Jim Crow laws w/o the Government making those laws? And your racial voter suppression is a total crock. There is zero evidence of racial voter suppression in this country over the last several decades. Tell me the last time there was a single case where the voting rules were different for a black person than a white person? This actually used to happen in our US history - hasn't happened for a long, long time. Democratic governments do not supersede the constitution. The constitution by design should be protecting the minority (in voting terms). LOL good god dude Unironically read a book or even just the Shelby v Holder Ginsburg dissent
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 27, 2021 17:55:23 GMT -5
In a democracy, for the most part the government does what voters want it to do. When it does racist things, it's because voters want it to do racist things. But yeah, what we are seeing here is basically a display of libertarian faith. It's a matter of faith that all evils spring from government, and without government either they would be non-existent or else so minor as to be non-problems. This completely ignores that it was only through the application of governmental power that a) we ended slavery, b) we ended Jim Crow, c) we desegregated (to some extent) schools (mainly only government-run schools). I mean, you might think from what Blue says that we should expect private schools are the great bastions of racial equality in this country.... I guess this is what confuses me, and maybe everyone else can chime in since I don’t see much honesty from him. Shouldn’t a libertarian and highly religious person be MORE concerned with racism? Wouldn’t this make them want to be more outwardly spoken against it and not diminish any of the value of its presence in society? Wouldn’t they want to acknowledge white privilege and how, in more scenarios than not, there is a default to white and they don’t face discrimination, in the private or government sphere, at all? Then again, we’re dealing with someone who when asked about what discrimination he has faced as a white person for being white, said that he may have gotten passed over for his looks of not being as attractive. Which is ironic in itself — people who are more attractive in general get an advantage, but this is not racial. And if we go to looks, we know whose appearances and hairstyles actually face more discrimination on a racial basis. Either way, I can’t believe that was an actual attempt at trying to say white people in any way face similar disadvantages to minorities. Wow! You are taking comments I have made out of context. Not sure where to start. I make a comment about one thing - and you attach this as a response to something else.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 27, 2021 17:57:14 GMT -5
No, but when the Government doesn't enforce equal protection - then they are the reason. Take race out of this for a moment. Say person A makes person B their slave. And the Government makes this legal - then this is 100% a Government problem. Say person A decides to cut off the leg of person B and the courts, laws all decide this is okay - then this is a Government problem. This is why we have a legal system and a constitution. Heck - people are killing people all the time. People are kidnapped. We have human trafficking. There is a lot of sick people in this country and world. A Government that allows this and makes it legal is a problem. Without government, what stops person A from enslaving person B anyway? Yes - Government is absolutely vital. Did I say something different. Capitalism doesn't work if one is able to steal, among other things. The protection of life, liberty and property is essential.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 27, 2021 17:59:50 GMT -5
Libertarian logic: it's not capitalism's fault when the government fails to restrain capitalism - but we shouldn't have government intervention in capitalism. Libertarian logic: The Government should apply the laws equally to all people and not pick and choose. Upholding life and property is vital for free markets to work. A Government that allows slavery, jim crow laws, etc... has miserably failed to protect the free market. Allowing some people to exploit the Government's failure to apply laws/the constitution equally (like slavery) is a fundamental problem created by the Government not free enterprise. The parallel to your logic here is someone say: "It's not my fault I cheated. It's my fault they didn't catch me!" And those are the values you run with.... But more importantly, I love how you can go so far down this rabbit hole and not admit that the "free" market would have racist outcomes, while you're blaming the government for not correcting those outcomes.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 27, 2021 18:13:38 GMT -5
I guess this is what confuses me, and maybe everyone else can chime in since I don’t see much honesty from him. Shouldn’t a libertarian and highly religious person be MORE concerned with racism? Wouldn’t this make them want to be more outwardly spoken against it and not diminish any of the value of its presence in society? Wouldn’t they want to acknowledge white privilege and how, in more scenarios than not, there is a default to white and they don’t face discrimination, in the private or government sphere, at all? Then again, we’re dealing with someone who when asked about what discrimination he has faced as a white person for being white, said that he may have gotten passed over for his looks of not being as attractive. Which is ironic in itself — people who are more attractive in general get an advantage, but this is not racial. And if we go to looks, we know whose appearances and hairstyles actually face more discrimination on a racial basis. Either way, I can’t believe that was an actual attempt at trying to say white people in any way face similar disadvantages to minorities. Wow! You are taking comments I have made out of context. Not sure where to start. I make a comment about one thing - and you attach this as a response to something else. No i’m not. It’s not out of context. You were specifically directly asked what whites face discrimination as, AS A GROUP, and that was your response. Why did you respond in that way? These were your examples: one is not even close to racial discrimination (what was the point in bringing it up then?) What part was taken out of context? The only issue is you said you *may* have been passed over — my apologies if that’s the issue. It’s trivial at best — it was the point you were trying to make re: potential discriminations. Do "whites" *as a group* face discrimination? News to me if we do. Sure they do - I have applied for many jobs and the great majority of them I was not offered the job. I doubt that any of them was because I was white. My appearance could have easily been a factor - it is usually pretty important in the hiring process. My qualifications - I also doubt it. The employer had to make a decision and 'discriminate' in their selection. This is rather normal. Of course an easy place (and not a big deal) - was being an 18 year old kid at the park playing basketball where I was the only white person around. My race didn't give me much advantage in getting picked to play - pretty much relegated to playing when my turn in calling game came up.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 27, 2021 18:21:49 GMT -5
Shouldn’t a libertarian and highly religious person be MORE concerned with racism? Wouldn’t this make them want to be more outwardly spoken against it and not diminish any of the value of its presence in society? Wouldn’t they want to acknowledge white privilege and how, in more scenarios than not, there is a default to white and they don’t face discrimination, in the private or government sphere, at all? There is a reason why libertarianism is mainly professed by white males (typically white males in college). Very few other people can force themselves to believe that without enforced laws, everything would be better. Libertarianism is fundamentally a product of privilege. White males in US society actually have some pretty good reasons to believe without the government everything would still work out fine for them. Their life experience is that bad things don't happen to people like them unless they go out looking for them, so they assume that when bad things do happen to other people, it's because those other people went out looking for them. It's quite easy to be a libertarian in that frame of reference. Women know that the world doesn't work that way. Black people in the US know that the world doesn't work that way. Etc. But white males (especially white male college students) live in a world that actually was designed to benefit them, so for them it's pretty rational to believe that government is not needed.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 27, 2021 18:23:13 GMT -5
Libertarian logic: it's not capitalism's fault when the government fails to restrain capitalism - but we shouldn't have government intervention in capitalism. Exactly. He's blaming government for not stopping the slavery, and then saying that this means that slavery is because of government.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 27, 2021 18:23:48 GMT -5
And your racial voter suppression is a total crock. There is zero evidence of racial voter suppression in this country over the last several decades. Tell me the last time there was a single case where the voting rules were different for a black person than a white person? There are no laws or voting restrictions created attempted to make voting more difficult that specifically target or at the very least disadvantage minority groups in disproportionate numbers? You can say YOU disagree with the evidence presented, but please don’t say there’s no evidence. So there can be no voter suppression unless the rules are different? I wonder if your opinion would be literacy tests couldn’t be racist either.
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Post by donut on Jun 27, 2021 18:26:52 GMT -5
Plenty of evidence. Blue just ignores it.
He's the only crock here.
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