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Post by donut on Jun 16, 2021 19:54:32 GMT -5
We literally had this discussion very recently (see: redlining). You refuse to engage with this in an honest manner. The #1 one thing is equal protection under the law. The law and and application of the law cannot be racist. And where the law and application of the law is racist, I am 100% for fixing. holy f*ck omg lol
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 16, 2021 21:21:47 GMT -5
Let's say you buy a painting. You pay good money for it. Pay taxes on the sale. Etc. The person you bought it from also bought it. The person they bought if from also bought it. But the person *they* bought it from stole it from the house of a Japanese family who had been sent off to a concentration camp in WW2.
Who owns that painting? You? Or the heirs of that Japanese family? Do you owe them anything?
Now let's say you own a shopping mall. You bought the land it is on from a farmer. He inherited it from his father. Who inherited it. Who inherited it. Who inherited it -- from a guy who claimed it after lynching the family of ex-slaves who had owned it in 1870. Who owns "your" shopping mall? Do you owe the heirs of that lynched family?
What if the family members who survived the lynching were then kept uneducated, denied good jobs, prohibited from integrating themselves into white society, and never built up that "generational wealth" that your family did. Now they work low-paying retail jobs in the shopping center.
Did any of this "privilege" you over them? You bet your ass it did. Even though you didn't lynch anybody.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 21:45:00 GMT -5
Hubert Humphrey. Who knew he was the mastermind behind racism in America?
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 22:02:37 GMT -5
We literally had this discussion very recently (see: redlining). You refuse to engage with this in an honest manner. I must have missed 'redlining' mentioned earlier? But really (?) - redlining was the result of the racist New Deal from FDR that was later reinforced in a housing act in 1948 (or 49). It was the Federal Government that was the primary culprit in housing segregation, approval of insurance, etc... It was the Feds that caused the housing wealth race gap in the US. It was white northern liberals like Hubert Humphrey that perpetuated this housing racism into the 60's and 70's. I am not denying the horrible racist stuff that has gone in this country. We have made progress - but most of the problems lie with the Government instituting racist laws. I am not going to claim the free market (in so much as we have had one) is perfect, but it is very clear that Government action has been horrible and the major problem. The #1 one thing is equal protection under the law. The law and and application of the law cannot be racist. And where the law and application of the law is racist, I am 100% for fixing. This is so ridiculous. P.S. The alchemist-necromancer Yeshua, who you profess to worship, would HATE you, if he's anything like how the scriptures portray him.
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Post by donut on Jun 16, 2021 22:24:33 GMT -5
Imagine making the argument "the Government is the primary culprit of racism but equal protection under the law solves everything."
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 16, 2021 23:20:29 GMT -5
Now let's say you own a shopping mall. You bought the land it is on from a farmer. He inherited it from his father. Who inherited it. Who inherited it. Who inherited it -- from a guy who claimed it after lynching the family of ex-slaves who had owned it in 1870. Who owns "your" shopping mall? Do you owe the heirs of that lynched family? Are the heirs entitled to the shopping mall or the land under the mall?
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 16, 2021 23:23:06 GMT -5
I must have missed 'redlining' mentioned earlier? But really (?) - redlining was the result of the racist New Deal from FDR that was later reinforced in a housing act in 1948 (or 49). It was the Federal Government that was the primary culprit in housing segregation, approval of insurance, etc... It was the Feds that caused the housing wealth race gap in the US. It was white northern liberals like Hubert Humphrey that perpetuated this housing racism into the 60's and 70's. I am not denying the horrible racist stuff that has gone in this country. We have made progress - but most of the problems lie with the Government instituting racist laws. I am not going to claim the free market (in so much as we have had one) is perfect, but it is very clear that Government action has been horrible and the major problem. The #1 one thing is equal protection under the law. The law and and application of the law cannot be racist. And where the law and application of the law is racist, I am 100% for fixing. This is so ridiculous. P.S. The alchemist-necromancer Yeshua, who you profess to worship, would HATE you, if he's anything like how the scriptures portray him. I don't remember the scriptures portraying Yeshua as hateful but I may have missed that one. Regardless THAT'S a discussion for a different thread.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 23:55:48 GMT -5
This is so ridiculous. P.S. The alchemist-necromancer Yeshua, who you profess to worship, would HATE you, if he's anything like how the scriptures portray him. I don't remember the scriptures portraying Yeshua as hateful but I may have missed that one. Regardless THAT'S a discussion for a different thread.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 6:29:33 GMT -5
Yeah there definitely weren't any racist business owners during Jim Crow or segregation no sir! Every swimming pool and lunch counter in Alabama was secretly run by government plants. 1) Does this go on today? This hasn't happened for decades - 40-50+ years ago. 2) This has little/nothing to do with the generational wealth gap like the Federal housing discrimination that took place in the 30's to the 60's.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 6:35:30 GMT -5
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 6:40:33 GMT -5
Let's say you buy a painting. You pay good money for it. Pay taxes on the sale. Etc. The person you bought it from also bought it. The person they bought if from also bought it. But the person *they* bought it from stole it from the house of a Japanese family who had been sent off to a concentration camp in WW2. Who owns that painting? You? Or the heirs of that Japanese family? Do you owe them anything? Now let's say you own a shopping mall. You bought the land it is on from a farmer. He inherited it from his father. Who inherited it. Who inherited it. Who inherited it -- from a guy who claimed it after lynching the family of ex-slaves who had owned it in 1870. Who owns "your" shopping mall? Do you owe the heirs of that lynched family? What if the family members who survived the lynching were then kept uneducated, denied good jobs, prohibited from integrating themselves into white society, and never built up that "generational wealth" that your family did. Now they work low-paying retail jobs in the shopping center. Did any of this "privilege" you over them? You bet your ass it did. Even though you didn't lynch anybody. Pretty much all caused by the racist 'democratic' laws of the US and not the 'free' market. Who made slavery legal. Who allowed lynching to exist. Who was responsible for education. Who was mostly causing segregated housing and insurance?
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Post by cindra on Jun 17, 2021 6:47:08 GMT -5
Let's say you buy a painting. You pay good money for it. Pay taxes on the sale. Etc. The person you bought it from also bought it. The person they bought if from also bought it. But the person *they* bought it from stole it from the house of a Japanese family who had been sent off to a concentration camp in WW2. Who owns that painting? You? Or the heirs of that Japanese family? Do you owe them anything? Now let's say you own a shopping mall. You bought the land it is on from a farmer. He inherited it from his father. Who inherited it. Who inherited it. Who inherited it -- from a guy who claimed it after lynching the family of ex-slaves who had owned it in 1870. Who owns "your" shopping mall? Do you owe the heirs of that lynched family? What if the family members who survived the lynching were then kept uneducated, denied good jobs, prohibited from integrating themselves into white society, and never built up that "generational wealth" that your family did. Now they work low-paying retail jobs in the shopping center. Did any of this "privilege" you over them? You bet your ass it did. Even though you didn't lynch anybody. Pretty much all caused by the racist 'democratic' laws of the US and not the 'free' market. Who made slavery legal. Who allowed lynching to exist. Who was responsible for education. Who was mostly causing segregated housing and insurance? I agree, we should use government power to reverse former government wrongs. Make atonement.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 6:51:14 GMT -5
Hubert Humphrey. Who knew he was the mastermind behind racism in America? Didn't say that. Just that he caved in the 1949 Housing Act allowing segregated public housing to continue. From Richard Rothstein's book 'The Color Law' <<Republicans in Congress put forward an amendment to Truman's 1949 Housing Act, requiring that from now on, public housing had to be integrated. No more segregation in public housing. They assumed that conservative republicans would be able to get northern liberal democrats to support this amendment, and the amendment would pass. Then once the housing bill was saddled with an integration amendment, southern democrats would abandon it, and the entire bill would go down to defeat. Well, the result was that northern liberals campaigned against the integration amendment. They were led by Hubert Humphrey, a civil rights advocate in the Senate, the leading civil rights advocate in the Senate was Paul Douglas of Illinois, and he also led the campaign against the integration amendment. The integration amendment was defeated. The 1949 Housing Act was adopted, preserving segregation in public housing.>>
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 17, 2021 7:00:29 GMT -5
Pretty much all caused by the racist 'democratic' laws of the US and not the 'free' market. Who made slavery legal. Who allowed lynching to exist. Who was responsible for education. Who was mostly causing segregated housing and insurance? I agree, we should use government power to reverse former government wrongs. Make atonement. Do we use a murderer to determine the appropriate remedy for their action? Why such trust in the organization that caused the problem to be best equipped to reverse them? I am not sure what the solution for 'atonement'? Correcting the racist laws that didn't allow for equal protection is a start - for which a lot of progress has been made. Reoperations would be impossible to implement 'fairly' by trying to unravel. Promoting a society that tries to define people by race is a very poor solution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 8:27:21 GMT -5
Free markets are not the solution and never have been. Free markets have always been the tool used by property owners to acquire more property and protect the property they already own. Systemic racism, in short.
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