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Post by shawty on Dec 20, 2021 15:43:46 GMT -5
I don’t think actually standards are the problem right now. It’s the transparency of holding people accountable who arnt adhering to those standards. Everyone from politicians to corporations to sports establishments to individuals say we’re about this and this and this but then their actions complete contradict that and no one’s held accountable cause everyone is the victim these days. Are their standards for the players and coaches, or just the coaches? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2021 15:50:44 GMT -5
I get most of what you are saying and I’m not for abuse but there has to be discipline. Otherwise people just do whatever the hell they want when there’s no consequences. The question comes down to what each individual sees as abuse vs discipline. What we need is transparency. Everything that can and can’t be done needs to be written down for everyone to see and then it’s each individuals choice weather they want to adhere to those rules. If those rules are broken people need to be held accountable otherwise the same thing will happen over and over. So I guess in essence it’s setting a standard and holding people who choose to accept that standard accountable if they break it. I don’t think actually standards are the problem right now. It’s the transparency of holding people accountable who arnt adhering to those standards. Everyone from politicians to corporations to sports establishments to individuals say we’re about this and this and this but then their actions complete contradict that and no one’s held accountable cause everyone is the victim these days. I get what you are saying as well, and I totally get what you are saying in a power-sharing environment like politics where you want some balance between the parties to check each other. My point goes towards every other form of teaching at a university and why is teaching athletes so wildly different? If someone misses a math problem and just doesn't get it, you try to find another way to teach them that they will understand, you don't send them out to do winds prints until they can solve that partial differential. The young VB players I know are intensely focused and have an incredible inner drive to compete and to get better. I guess for me it comes down to what do you really mean by discipline? Are we talking about being late to practice, mouthing off to a coach, being disrespectful to another player or sleeping during film? That requires one type of punishment. I'm thinking more of "I told you to drop your hand, you didn't and she hit the ball right by you again. Get on the line and run". To me that is a sign of poor teaching, is lazy coaching and is never OK. Yes I understand. As far as math scenario I agree that you want to do whatever you can to teach so they they are willing to understand it and if they don’t want to put in the effort to try and learn any way possible then they are already disciplined in the bad grade they will get for getting answer wrong. I’m that scenario it about figuring out best scenario to get them to their goal of achievement. Negative discipline does nothing there cause it will show up in final result. I guess that can be the same way in sports also. Find creative way to help someone to succeed and if they can’t get it then the discipline shows up in the results of not winning. And yes with discipline for the most part I was referring to the 4 things you listed. People can’t just come in and be disruptive and do whatever they want especially cause that can negatively effect teams as whole and there has to be consequences there |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2021 15:51:35 GMT -5
Are their standards for the players and coaches, or just the coaches? . Both. I think that’s only way their can be any kind of mutual respect. |
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Post by volleyfan4321 on Dec 20, 2021 16:03:05 GMT -5
With another season under our belts and the usual coaching carousel in full bloom, now seems like a good time to ask the question. A few threads have suggested that once great coaches are out of touch. Even younger coaches aren’t shielded from this criticism. Others have suggested that NIL and the transfer portal have been demotivating for athletes creating instability where players no longer want to fight for a spot on the court or are no longer satisfied with just to be on the roster. Is it a Gen Z thing? Neither NIL nor transfer portal are going away anytime soon. So what’s a coach to do? My advice to all coaches: "Speak to a young athlete as if their father is a 6'-6" NFL linebacker with a bad attitude and he's in the room." In other words don't say harsh things. Be kind. It's not that hard to do. Yes demands are made of young athletes but keep things civil and fair. The Golden Rule. |
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Post by shawty on Dec 20, 2021 16:04:11 GMT -5
Yes, there are generational differences, but the inability for someone your age to relate to teenagers (or young 20's) is universal and would have been just as true for you if you were your age in the 1950's as it is today. Case in point — Neb vs Penn St. head coaches. They’re about the same age but no one is calling Cook out of touch. He seems authentic, not pandering to Gen Z. He seems to be doing something right. And then there’s the case of Missouri. That coach is being dragged all over VT for being out of touch and he’s only a few years older than his players. Empathy seems to be what some coaches are missing. Maybe the players are missing something too but they are young and still developing. I think you gotta account for that and help them. Coaches need to be mentored too. |
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Post by oldnewbie on Dec 20, 2021 16:26:07 GMT -5
I get what you are saying as well, and I totally get what you are saying in a power-sharing environment like politics where you want some balance between the parties to check each other. My point goes towards every other form of teaching at a university and why is teaching athletes so wildly different? If someone misses a math problem and just doesn't get it, you try to find another way to teach them that they will understand, you don't send them out to do winds prints until they can solve that partial differential. The young VB players I know are intensely focused and have an incredible inner drive to compete and to get better. I guess for me it comes down to what do you really mean by discipline? Are we talking about being late to practice, mouthing off to a coach, being disrespectful to another player or sleeping during film? That requires one type of punishment. I'm thinking more of "I told you to drop your hand, you didn't and she hit the ball right by you again. Get on the line and run". To me that is a sign of poor teaching, is lazy coaching and is never OK. Yes I understand. As far as math scenario I agree that you want to do whatever you can to teach so they they are willing to understand it and if they don’t want to put in the effort to try and learn any way possible then they are already disciplined in the bad grade they will get for getting answer wrong. I’m that scenario it about figuring out best scenario to get them to their goal of achievement. Negative discipline does nothing there cause it will show up in final result. I guess that can be the same way in sports also. Find creative way to help someone to succeed and if they can’t get it then the discipline shows up in the results of not winning. And yes with discipline for the most part I was referring to the 4 things you listed. People can’t just come in and be disruptive and do whatever they want especially cause that can negatively effect teams as whole and there has to be consequences there Yes, if that is what we mean by discipline, then I am right there with you. I think quality coaches are creative and know how to reach different players in different ways and keep it fresh, and if you don't have players that think being held out of practice and held out of matches is severe discipline, then you either aren't coaching the level of team we talk about on this forum or you have done something very wrong with your recruiting. When talking pure discipline, I like it handled as off-line as possible (outside of practice and not in front of the team, assuming the team wasn't involved), with as little emotion as possible and make the expectations and how they were broken as clear as possible, with the ramification being loss of practice time, loss of game time then finally removal from the team. Along the way, I would hope the coaching staff would be doing all they could to find out why the player was acting in a way that required discipline and get them the support they need to succeed. |
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Post by shawty on Dec 20, 2021 18:00:47 GMT -5
What about the aspects of coaching not related to discipline? The repetitive but fundamental stuff. Watching lots of film with your player. Answering tons of questions. Checking in with players. If you see them struggling, not judging but directing them to resources. When that part of the job becomes a chore, I think that’s when you as a coach need to reevaluate why you’re doing this.
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Post by akbar on Dec 20, 2021 19:15:20 GMT -5
One HUGE aspect or elephant in the room that has emerged of late is parents feeling entitled to call, question and challenge college coaches and professors.
This started before the pandemic but has been accelerated.
We saw this "monster" growing in youth sports but it 100% has spilled in to college athletics and academics.
THAT is a shame.
"Oh....by the way please don't tell my daughter that I called you"
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Post by akbar on Dec 23, 2021 19:45:39 GMT -5
My parents never tried to fight a battle for me with a coach. That's what I see today, parents yelling and "coaching" and just putting more pressure on their kids and it's really a shame. They should just be letting them play and develop and have fun.
— Steve Kerr
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Post by shawty on Dec 24, 2021 15:47:37 GMT -5
I'm just musing... What even is "soft"? If "soft" is learning to tolerate coaches who get off on their power when they do things like blaming you for your injuries, cussing you out in practice, telling you daily to transfer, physical penalties, regularly delivering rude critiques about a player in front of other players i.e., "Player A can't jump. Player B can't read. Player C, you have no idea where you're going do you?" If refusing to tolerate that makes you soft, I question the definition of soft. Maybe it's the opposite of being soft. (And I don't want to blame those who don't stand up for themselves.)
After all, isn't part of being a college student-athlete is learning to have some agency with regard to your well-being?
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Post by veebz17 on Dec 24, 2021 16:29:05 GMT -5
I'm just musing... What even is "soft"? If "soft" is learning to tolerate coaches who get off on their power when they do things like blaming you for your injuries, cussing you out in practice, telling you daily to transfer, physical penalties, regularly delivering rude critiques about a player in front of other players i.e., "Player A can't jump. Player B can't read. Player C, you have no idea where you're going do you?" If refusing to tolerate that makes you soft, I question the definition of soft. Maybe it's the opposite of being soft. (And I don't want to blame those who don't stand up for themselves.) After all, isn't part of being a college student-athlete is learning to have some agency with regard to your well-being? This post really resonated with me so I thought I would chime in. My college vball experience was not what I wanted it to be because I had a coach like this. We were a team of first years (the team had just moved up divisions- I guess the Canadian version of a D3 school) with a new coach. Being 18, away from home for the first time, while keeping up with my classes was really challenging for me (which is where I can say I was a little “soft” in the sense that I was under a lot of pressure, sensitive, and didn’t really have the tools or support to cope with it all). Our coach played all sorts of mind games with us. Tons of criticizing players to other players… never made the effort to get to know us as individuals, just treated us like we were disposable. I remember he packed up his office a couple times threatening to quit, so that we would have to beg for him to stay. Screaming down the bench during a match that “this was why he was recruiting new setters”. Super manipulative. After a really rough season of him “breaking us down to build us back up” but really only breaking us down, there was a mass exodus with 15/18 players quitting the team. He kept his job. The same thing happened the following season with his new team!! It took a couple petitions and lots of complaints to the dean (this coach was really tight with the athletic director) before he was finally let go. Lots of the girls I played with really lost their love of the game after playing for him. To put it back to the original question, I think it’s a little bit of both. Young players coming out of high school are trying to adjust to so many life changes and they might be used to being the “star” so they don’t know how to take criticism. It’s a steep learning curve. But as a coach you can’t paint everyone with the same brush - some tactics to motivate will work for some and not others. You need rapport. If the player feels like the coach values them, sees potential, cares for them - you can be tough on them without losing them, you know what I mean? I saw the video of Coach Cook getting choked up while handing Caffey and Knuckles their degrees and I nearly teared up myself. You can tell he cares about his players. |
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Post by Wiswell on Dec 24, 2021 16:40:16 GMT -5
I think, in sum, coaching is leadership. It's not bullying. Bullying is not coaching.
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Post by veebz17 on Dec 24, 2021 16:44:16 GMT -5
I think, in sum, coaching is leadership. It's not bullying. Bullying is not coaching. 😂 nailed it. |
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Dec 24, 2021 16:56:31 GMT -5
I'm just musing... What even is "soft"? If "soft" is learning to tolerate coaches who get off on their power when they do things like blaming you for your injuries, cussing you out in practice, telling you daily to transfer, physical penalties, regularly delivering rude critiques about a player in front of other players i.e., "Player A can't jump. Player B can't read. Player C, you have no idea where you're going do you?" If refusing to tolerate that makes you soft, I question the definition of soft. Maybe it's the opposite of being soft. (And I don't want to blame those who don't stand up for themselves.) After all, isn't part of being a college student-athlete is learning to have some agency with regard to your well-being? This post really resonated with me so I thought I would chime in. My college vball experience was not what I wanted it to be because I had a coach like this. We were a team of first years (the team had just moved up divisions- I guess the Canadian version of a D3 school) with a new coach. Being 18, away from home for the first time, while keeping up with my classes was really challenging for me (which is where I can say I was a little “soft” in the sense that I was under a lot of pressure, sensitive, and didn’t really have the tools or support to cope with it all). Our coach played all sorts of mind games with us. Tons of criticizing players to other players… never made the effort to get to know us as individuals, just treated us like we were disposable. I remember he packed up his office a couple times threatening to quit, so that we would have to beg for him to stay. Screaming down the bench during a match that “this was why he was recruiting new setters”. Super manipulative. After a really rough season of him “breaking us down to build us back up” but really only breaking us down, there was a mass exodus with 15/18 players quitting the team. He kept his job. The same thing happened the following season with his new team!! It took a couple petitions and lots of complaints to the dean (this coach was really tight with the athletic director) before he was finally let go. Lots of the girls I played with really lost their love of the game after playing for him. To put it back to the original question, I think it’s a little bit of both. Young players coming out of high school are trying to adjust to so many life changes and they might be used to being the “star” so they don’t know how to take criticism. It’s a steep learning curve. But as a coach you can’t paint everyone with the same brush - some tactics to motivate will work for some and not others. You need rapport. If the player feels like the coach values them, sees potential, cares for them - you can be tough on them without losing them, you know what I mean? I saw the video of Coach Cook getting choked up while handing Caffey and Knuckles their degrees and I nearly teared up myself. You can tell he cares about his players. Having grown up in Canada I can attest to witnessing coaches using the same coaching style you talked about. I hope it's no longer the case but the coach I knew was pretty influential and probably led many aspiring coaches down the wrong path. Thankfully we know more now. That being said, I still feel like a sense of entitlement is passed on to some athletes. Whether it comes from parents, coaches, or us here on boards. Some players behave in a way that suggests they think they're owed the world and are not willing to pay their dues. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 26, 2021 9:32:40 GMT -5
I've never been a volleyball coach, but I have sat in the passenger seat of a car on a racetrack when I was coaching the driver. I've also coached people on how to climb mountains, and then gone climbing with them. So I've literally put my life on the line with my coaching.
The main thing I learned is that everyone takes in and processes information differently. As a coach, you have to figure out how to get through to your student. What will work with one may not work as well with another. You have to watch and see whether they keep making the mistake you are trying to coach them out of. If they do, you need to find a different way to coach them.
But one thing that is nearly universal is that people tend to be more open to positive reinforcement. Always try to tell them what they are doing that is right. Try to get them to do a right thing, and then tell them to repeat it. Don't just yell at them for doing a wrong thing, although sometimes you do have to call a time out and tell them when they did a wrong thing.
(And in a sport with deadly consequences, you have to do that RIGHT NOW. Like, "Exit into the pits this lap. I need to explain something to you that I can't explain while we are driving." Even then, however, you need to try to find a way to tell them what they should do, and not just tell them what not to do.)
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