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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 14:40:35 GMT -5
sheesh, it's not about Hawaii missing a pre-conference touranment. It would only affect the LAST non-conf weekend possibly, which is not a very good weekend for Hawaii to schedule anyway. Even if that were the case, having a conference tournament on the continent is a detriment to Hawaii. Since they’re already traveling for the NCAA’s, why make them take an additional trip just to have to beat other Big West teams one more time? What’s the incentive for Hawai’i? why is it a detriment?. Hawaii has a huge SoCal Fan base Hawaii at most makes one non-conf trip to the continent as it is. If there is tournament, it's also likely the COnference may go to Hawaii playing 3 match road-trips (vs. 2) for a couple of regular season trips, so overall it may be a wash what's the incentive to Hawaii? well, Hawaii has come closer and closer to not making the tournament the last few years if they don't win the auto-bid, a tournament could a) increase interest with the type of matches that actually generate interest, b) increase RPI, imagine Hawaii with two more matches year (or any year) with top 100/50 teams (Vs. all those sub 200 teams), c) starting conference week/half-week earlier and having a conf tournament if it's before T-Giving, might give Hawaii a bigger breather before NCAAs not every single thing to a BWCT is necessarily 'anti-Hawaii' lol. and I'm ambivalent about it, If I was Hawaii, I'd be all for it frankly due to the pros outweighing the cons, Hawaii is gonna be stuck playing the dregs of the Big West, why wouldn't they promote a BWCT that increases the profile of their resume. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 14:52:00 GMT -5
Even if that were the case, having a conference tournament on the continent is a detriment to Hawaii. Since they’re already traveling for the NCAA’s, why make them take an additional trip just to have to beat other Big West teams one more time? What’s the incentive for Hawai’i? why is it a detriment?. Hawaii has a huge SoCal Fan base Hawaii at most makes one non-conf trip to the continent as it is. If there is tournament, it's also likely the COnference may go to Hawaii playing 3 match road-trips (vs. 2) for a couple of regular season trips, so overall it may be a wash what's the incentive to Hawaii? well, Hawaii has come closer and closer to not making the tournament the last few years if they don't win the auto-bid, a tournament could a) increase interest with the type of matches that actually generate interest, b) increase RPI, imagine Hawaii with two more matches year (or any year) with top 100/50 teams (Vs. all those sub 200 teams), c) starting conference week/half-week earlier and having a conf tournament if it's before T-Giving, might give Hawaii a bigger breather before NCAAs not every single thing to a BWCT is necessarily 'anti-Hawaii' lol. and I'm ambivalent about it, If I was Hawaii, I'd be all for it frankly due to the pros outweighing the cons, Hawaii is gonna be stuck playing the dregs of the Big West, why wouldn't they promote a BWCT that increases the profile of their resume. The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 15:02:57 GMT -5
why is it a detriment?. Hawaii has a huge SoCal Fan base Hawaii at most makes one non-conf trip to the continent as it is. If there is tournament, it's also likely the COnference may go to Hawaii playing 3 match road-trips (vs. 2) for a couple of regular season trips, so overall it may be a wash what's the incentive to Hawaii? well, Hawaii has come closer and closer to not making the tournament the last few years if they don't win the auto-bid, a tournament could a) increase interest with the type of matches that actually generate interest, b) increase RPI, imagine Hawaii with two more matches year (or any year) with top 100/50 teams (Vs. all those sub 200 teams), c) starting conference week/half-week earlier and having a conf tournament if it's before T-Giving, might give Hawaii a bigger breather before NCAAs not every single thing to a BWCT is necessarily 'anti-Hawaii' lol. and I'm ambivalent about it, If I was Hawaii, I'd be all for it frankly due to the pros outweighing the cons, Hawaii is gonna be stuck playing the dregs of the Big West, why wouldn't they promote a BWCT that increases the profile of their resume. The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? if you assume 'nothing changes', then Hawaii most definitely will be a bubble team 'out' in the next five years that's a defeatist mentality If Hawaii would play say 2 of Poly/Beach/UCSB one more time, it would raise their profile - not a lot granted the question for Hawaii is whether a) it's worth pushing the Big West reg season in a bit at the expense of a 4th week they can't schedule any other non-conf teams (well, they haven't been able to find opponents that last week anyway the last few years!) b) is it worth it in terms of fan / conf interest. well, on one hand, Hawaii fans complaining about the other Big West teams raising their profile, and then complaining about a BWCT that is set up to raise the conference profile. c) I mean I can't think of a single downside from Hawaii's perspective. the argument is Hawaii doesn't need the tournament. Well, it seems if the goal of a BWCT raising the profile of other teams accomplishes exactly what Hawaii throngs complain about, lol d) the model is the MVB and Beach VB tournaments. They are and have been great events. So I guess maybe the conference should ditch the MVB and Beach tournaments as well. as a Long Beach fan, I'm ambivalent or against it, cause Long Beach is the one program that could probably schedule better without a tournament than with it. not the same for Hawaii I think most of the Hawaii arguments against it are just 'made up' paranoia arguments as usual. |
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Nov 27, 2022 15:05:27 GMT -5
why is it a detriment?. Hawaii has a huge SoCal Fan base Hawaii at most makes one non-conf trip to the continent as it is. If there is tournament, it's also likely the COnference may go to Hawaii playing 3 match road-trips (vs. 2) for a couple of regular season trips, so overall it may be a wash what's the incentive to Hawaii? well, Hawaii has come closer and closer to not making the tournament the last few years if they don't win the auto-bid, a tournament could a) increase interest with the type of matches that actually generate interest, b) increase RPI, imagine Hawaii with two more matches year (or any year) with top 100/50 teams (Vs. all those sub 200 teams), c) starting conference week/half-week earlier and having a conf tournament if it's before T-Giving, might give Hawaii a bigger breather before NCAAs not every single thing to a BWCT is necessarily 'anti-Hawaii' lol. and I'm ambivalent about it, If I was Hawaii, I'd be all for it frankly due to the pros outweighing the cons, Hawaii is gonna be stuck playing the dregs of the Big West, why wouldn't they promote a BWCT that increases the profile of their resume. The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? in fairness, hawaii didn't technically help the conference RPI the past couple years. this year and last year, they had losing non-conference records (3-5). this year, despite the losing non-conference, hawaii scheduled so tough (with bonuses from pitt, san diego, usc as top 25 RPI teams, and even texas st as a top 50 team) that it boosted their own RPI (currently 40) to be on the better side of bubble. but anytime a team finishes the non-conference portion of the schedule with a losing record, it does no favors to the rest of the conference teams (for RPI purposes). |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 15:15:06 GMT -5
The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? if you assume 'nothing changes', then Hawaii most definitely will be a bubble team 'out' in the next five years that's a defeatist mentality If Hawaii would play say 2 of Poly/Beach/UCSB one more time, it would raise their profile - not a lot granted the question for Hawaii is whether a) it's worth pushing the Big West reg season in a bit at the expense of a 4th week they can't schedule any other non-conf teams (well, they haven't been able to find opponents that last week anyway the last few years!) b) is it worth it in terms of fan / conf interest. well, on one hand, Hawaii fans complaining about the other Big West teams raising their profile, and then complaining about a BWCT that is set up to raise the conference profile. c) I mean I can't think of a single downside from Hawaii's perspective. the argument is Hawaii doesn't need the tournament. Well, it seems if the goal of a BWCT raising the profile of other teams accomplishes exactly what Hawaii throngs complain about, lol d) the model is the MVB and Beach VB tournaments. They are and have been great events. So I guess maybe the conference should ditch the MVB and Beach tournaments as well. as a Long Beach fan, I'm ambivalent or against it, cause Long Beach is the one program that could probably schedule better without a tournament than with it. not the same for Hawaii I think most of the Hawaii arguments against it are just 'made up' paranoia arguments as usual. Your argument is rambling, full of non sequitors and is too hard to follow. MVB and Beach VB tournaments are not the model. They aren't competing in 64 team championship tournaments. The more appropriate model to compare is men's and women's basketball and soccer, for example. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 15:19:33 GMT -5
if you assume 'nothing changes', then Hawaii most definitely will be a bubble team 'out' in the next five years that's a defeatist mentality If Hawaii would play say 2 of Poly/Beach/UCSB one more time, it would raise their profile - not a lot granted the question for Hawaii is whether a) it's worth pushing the Big West reg season in a bit at the expense of a 4th week they can't schedule any other non-conf teams (well, they haven't been able to find opponents that last week anyway the last few years!) b) is it worth it in terms of fan / conf interest. well, on one hand, Hawaii fans complaining about the other Big West teams raising their profile, and then complaining about a BWCT that is set up to raise the conference profile. c) I mean I can't think of a single downside from Hawaii's perspective. the argument is Hawaii doesn't need the tournament. Well, it seems if the goal of a BWCT raising the profile of other teams accomplishes exactly what Hawaii throngs complain about, lol d) the model is the MVB and Beach VB tournaments. They are and have been great events. So I guess maybe the conference should ditch the MVB and Beach tournaments as well. as a Long Beach fan, I'm ambivalent or against it, cause Long Beach is the one program that could probably schedule better without a tournament than with it. not the same for Hawaii I think most of the Hawaii arguments against it are just 'made up' paranoia arguments as usual. Your argument is rambling, full of non sequitors and is too hard to follow. MVB and Beach VB tournaments are not the model. They aren't competing in 64 team championship tournaments. The more appropriate model to compare is men's and women's basketball and soccer, for example. yes, MVB & Beach VB are appropriate, the # of teams in the NCAAs is different but that doesn't make it any less appropriate it all comes down to determining how or why to determine an auto-bid your argument is full of holes. two can play the 'put-down game. I suspect you followed the line of reasoning just fine. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2022 15:24:05 GMT -5
The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? in fairness, hawaii didn't technically help the conference RPI the past couple years. this year and last year, they had losing non-conference records (3-5). this year, despite the losing non-conference, hawaii scheduled so tough (with bonuses from pitt, san diego, usc as top 25 RPI teams, and even texas st as a top 50 team) that it boosted their own RPI (currently 40) to be on the better side of bubble. but anytime a team finishes the non-conference portion of the schedule with a losing record, it does no favors to the rest of the conference teams (for RPI purposes). I totally agree with this too. Hawaii has a part in collective low RPI of the conference this season and last season. Every program needs to improve and Hawaii is not the exception to this. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 15:25:08 GMT -5
The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? in fairness, hawaii didn't technically help the conference RPI the past couple years. this year and last year, they had losing non-conference records (3-5). this year, despite the losing non-conference, hawaii scheduled so tough (with bonuses from pitt, san diego, usc as top 25 RPI teams, and even texas st as a top 50 team) that it boosted their own RPI (currently 40) to be on the better side of bubble. but anytime a team finishes the non-conference portion of the schedule with a losing record, it does no favors to the rest of the conference teams (for RPI purposes). Point taken. This is why doing a post-season RPI analysis is crucial and promoting that understanding a conference level is key, which is really my primary point. I know coaches think about rpi, but none of them are doing the type of detailed analysis that is really required. The conference tournament is simply like offering a lollipop to crying kids who lost. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 15:32:49 GMT -5
in fairness, hawaii didn't technically help the conference RPI the past couple years. this year and last year, they had losing non-conference records (3-5). this year, despite the losing non-conference, hawaii scheduled so tough (with bonuses from pitt, san diego, usc as top 25 RPI teams, and even texas st as a top 50 team) that it boosted their own RPI (currently 40) to be on the better side of bubble. but anytime a team finishes the non-conference portion of the schedule with a losing record, it does no favors to the rest of the conference teams (for RPI purposes). Point taken. This is why doing a post-season RPI analysis is crucial and promoting that understanding a conference level is key, which is really my primary point. I know coaches think about rpi, but none of them are doing the type of detailed analysis that is really required. The conference tournament is simply like offering a lollipop to crying kids who lost. lol, no it's not. it's too promote the league. under your reasoning, there's no need for a MBB or WBB tournamentn either. the coaches know RPI, they know the Big West standing in RPI, they may not live and breathe, but those coaches of the top 5 or so teams in the Big West 'know the score' in RPI. I doubt the coaches obsess about it, because no matter how much they'll try to 'game' RPI to put themselves in position, it all comes down to winning games in August & September. do tell, tell everybody how much detailed analysis is needed!!! that's laughable. the coaches aren't stupid, they know the rules, the criteria, the bottome line is aside from Hawaii/SB/Poly the alst few years, none of them would be able to take advantage of any 'RPI gaming' becaues they simply haven't been good enough. acting like they don't understand RPI is silly, of course they do, they just don't win enough yet. |
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Nov 27, 2022 15:33:06 GMT -5
The pros don't outweight the cons for Hawai'i. They're the only team that consistently has an RPI that would qualify for an at large bid. The reason for that is their pre-season schedule and results. They play the same conference teams as everyone else (except themselves, which benefits every other team's RPI but themselves). They've also won the Conference Championship in most of their seasons. How does a Big West Tournament actually raise the profile of their resume? if you assume 'nothing changes', then Hawaii most definitely will be a bubble team 'out' in the next five years that's a defeatist mentality If Hawaii would play say 2 of Poly/Beach/UCSB one more time, it would raise their profile - not a lot granted the question for Hawaii is whether a) it's worth pushing the Big West reg season in a bit at the expense of a 4th week they can't schedule any other non-conf teams (well, they haven't been able to find opponents that last week anyway the last few years!) b) is it worth it in terms of fan / conf interest. well, on one hand, Hawaii fans complaining about the other Big West teams raising their profile, and then complaining about a BWCT that is set up to raise the conference profile. c) I mean I can't think of a single downside from Hawaii's perspective. the argument is Hawaii doesn't need the tournament. Well, it seems if the goal of a BWCT raising the profile of other teams accomplishes exactly what Hawaii throngs complain about, lol d) the model is the MVB and Beach VB tournaments. They are and have been great events. So I guess maybe the conference should ditch the MVB and Beach tournaments as well. as a Long Beach fan, I'm ambivalent or against it, cause Long Beach is the one program that could probably schedule better without a tournament than with it. not the same for Hawaii I think most of the Hawaii arguments against it are just 'made up' paranoia arguments as usual. i'm actually open to a conference tournament, but the regular season conference scheduling would have to be tweaked/reduced first, to make it work. for your point a) -- the challenge for hawaii finding teams to play in the last week of the non-conference was impacted by covid, but we're emerging from that, and teams are willing to travel (even great distances) again. hawaii's early season tournaments have consistently attracted solid teams wanting to make the trip and simultaneously boost their RPI. with the BW conference schedule ballooning to 20 matches, that has actually done more to hinder non-conference scheduling in that final week. there's only 8 non-conference allotments to play with now. if hawaii plays a 3 match tourney on the mainland, plus 3-match tourney at home .... that leaves just 2 matches to play with. not enough to fill another 3-match tourney at home. so, the only option is to invite one team to play a 2-match homestand in hawaii. which might not be as desireable for teams traveling all this way. for points b), c), d) -- i'm not entirely convinced a BW tourney will raise the profiles of the other BW teams. i guess being the "BW Champion" can do that a little. but the better way to raise your profile is to get a signature win or more in the non-conference. i don't think the men's and beach tourneys are great examples for why the women should hold a tournament. for the men, the BW is already one of (if not, the) premiere conference out there. whether they hold a tournament or not, their profiles are just fine. and for the beach, RPI is not a consideration in selection. but i will agree that the tourneys create excitement... but moreso for the fans. if we do a tourney for the women, let's reduce the number of conference matches, and allow the teams more chances to schedule in the non-conference. those are the matches that will allow teams to better raise their profiles and RPI ... |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 15:34:32 GMT -5
Your argument is rambling, full of non sequitors and is too hard to follow. MVB and Beach VB tournaments are not the model. They aren't competing in 64 team championship tournaments. The more appropriate model to compare is men's and women's basketball and soccer, for example. yes, MVB & Beach VB are appropriate, the # of teams in the NCAAs is different but that doesn't make it any less appropriate it all comes down to determining how or why to determine an auto-bid your argument is full of holes. two can play the 'put-down game. I suspect you followed the line of reasoning just fine. You suspect wrong, I don't know what to tell you. The significant point is not to determine the AQ. There are two options to do that, conference schedule or year end tournament. The significant point is that a 64 team field has many more opportunities to enter the ncaa tournament than are available in MVB or Beach. A tournament in Women's volleyball increases the possibility of getting an at large bid by a maximum of 1. Improving the number of teams with at-large worthy RPI's has a practical limit, but it's much larger than 1. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 15:39:03 GMT -5
Point taken. This is why doing a post-season RPI analysis is crucial and promoting that understanding a conference level is key, which is really my primary point. I know coaches think about rpi, but none of them are doing the type of detailed analysis that is really required. The conference tournament is simply like offering a lollipop to crying kids who lost. lol, no it's not. it's too promote the league. under your reasoning, there's no need for a MBB or WBB tournamentn either. the coaches know RPI, they know the Big West standing in RPI, they may not live and breathe, but those coaches of the top 5 or so teams in the Big West 'know the score' in RPI. I doubt the coaches obsess about it, because no matter how much they'll try to 'game' RPI to put themselves in position, it all comes down to winning games in August & September. do tell, tell everybody how much detailed analysis is needed!!! that's laughable. the coaches aren't stupid, they know the rules, the criteria, the bottome line is aside from Hawaii/SB/Poly the alst few years, none of them would be able to take advantage of any 'RPI gaming' becaues they simply haven't been good enough. acting like they don't understand RPI is silly, of course they do, they just don't win enough yet. You don't know any of these coaches. Stop making a fool of yourself. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 15:42:57 GMT -5
yes, MVB & Beach VB are appropriate, the # of teams in the NCAAs is different but that doesn't make it any less appropriate it all comes down to determining how or why to determine an auto-bid your argument is full of holes. two can play the 'put-down game. I suspect you followed the line of reasoning just fine. You suspect wrong, I don't know what to tell you. The significant point is not to determine the AQ. There are two options to do that, conference schedule or year end tournament. The significant point is that a 64 team field has many more opportunities to enter the ncaa tournament than are available in MVB or Beach. A tournament in Women's volleyball increases the possibility of getting an at large bid by a maximum of 1. Improving the number of teams with at-large worthy RPI's has a practical limit, but it's much larger than 1. proportionally, a 64 tournament doesn't have more opportunities. in raw numbers yes, but there are also less teams in MVB and Beach VB practical limits?, lol again, it comes down to why hold a Tournament, it will have a positive effect on RPI, if limited to the top 4, maybe top 6 teams, because those will tend to be teams with winning records other than that, it's whether one thinks it will promote the league and interest in teams. if so, do it, if not don't. |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 27, 2022 15:50:59 GMT -5
You suspect wrong, I don't know what to tell you. The significant point is not to determine the AQ. There are two options to do that, conference schedule or year end tournament. The significant point is that a 64 team field has many more opportunities to enter the ncaa tournament than are available in MVB or Beach. A tournament in Women's volleyball increases the possibility of getting an at large bid by a maximum of 1. Improving the number of teams with at-large worthy RPI's has a practical limit, but it's much larger than 1. proportionally, a 64 tournament doesn't have more opportunities. in raw numbers yes, but there are also less teams in MVB and Beach VB practical limits?, lol again, it comes down to why hold a Tournament, it will have a positive effect on RPI, if limited to the top 4, maybe top 6 teams, because those will tend to be teams with winning records other than that, it's whether one thinks it will promote the league and interest in teams. if so, do it, if not don't. You do much better when you limit your words. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 27, 2022 15:52:14 GMT -5
proportionally, a 64 tournament doesn't have more opportunities. in raw numbers yes, but there are also less teams in MVB and Beach VB practical limits?, lol again, it comes down to why hold a Tournament, it will have a positive effect on RPI, if limited to the top 4, maybe top 6 teams, because those will tend to be teams with winning records other than that, it's whether one thinks it will promote the league and interest in teams. if so, do it, if not don't. You do much better when you limit your words. another put-down, lol two can play that game. you do much better when you don't say anything! sheesh |
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