bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Mar 14, 2023 10:19:14 GMT -5
Did I say it was wrong to attack DeSantis? Did I say this was unusual? I just said it is happening and that it is/was predictable. The left isn't 'attacking Tim Scott, Pence, Haley, etc... - they are attacking DeSantis. This isn't because DeSantis is 'bad' - or worse than the other's - it is because he is the major threat to a Democrat being President. Trump is attacking DeSantis for the same reason - DeSantis is the ONLY threat to Trump being the Republican nominee. He isn't attacking the others - he needs them to help beat DeSantis. Again - this is predictable. DeSantis is, in fact, NOT the only threat to Trump, he is just the biggest current threat to Trump. It is a long race, and they usually don't turn out like you think they will. Trump was not the early front-runner for 2016. Clinton was not the front-runner for 92. It is more likely than not DeSantis will NOT be the nominee, but he is working hard to out-Trump Trump at the moment. The makeup of the Republican party right now makes it impossible for anyone other than DeSantis to beat Trump in a Republican primary - assuming that Trump stays in the race and doesn't have some kind of major fallout (and what exactly would it take for Trump to have a major fallout in the party that he hasn't already done before?). Outside of a Trump 'failure' - there is a % chance of any Republican not named DeSantis can beat Trump in a primary. And DeSantis chances aren't better than 50%.
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Post by FreeBall on Mar 14, 2023 10:19:50 GMT -5
People are going to choose to believe what they want to. Obviously.
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Post by oldnewbie on Mar 14, 2023 10:23:54 GMT -5
It's predictable that "libertarian" bluepenquin defends DeSantis, a guy who keeps interjecting the government into private decisions like abortion and corporate policies on how businesses interact with their employees and customers. And also a guy who has tried to centralize into his own hands as much power as he can take from local governments. Not to mention interjecting the governor's office into schools from kindergarten to graduate programs. It is the state's right and obligation to 'interject' into public schools. If you don't think a State has this right - then get rid of public (Government) schools. Failure to recognize that an unborn human could have rights is just being plain dishonest on the issue of abortion (just as dismissing the women's right to control her how body for those on the other side). To say that a government has no role in abortion and the life of the unborn - is the same as saying the government has no role in murder, assault, etc... Roe was the Government inserting their will on individual rights. There is no neutral action that could be done here. DeSantis continues to get hit with lies and 'hit' pieces from the media. This isn't unusual - every legit Presidential candidate is going to face this. People are going to choose to believe what they want to. So, you are arguing to do away with public schools to save kids from power-hungry, authoritarian governor overreach? That is an interesting position. The claim that a fetus is an unborn human with full rights (that usurp the rights of the mother, apparently) is a new evangelical Christian construct that goes against thousands of years of established precedent and it is pure conceit and anti-American to impose your new-found religious views on the rest of society. DeSantis continues to do things precisely to create controversy and get you excited. The criticism of him from most of the political spectrum is justified and deserved but it gets you excited, and he is calculating that after he snows you into giving him the nomination, that he can soften his stance for the general election.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
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Posts: 12,849
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Post by bluepenquin on Mar 14, 2023 12:28:38 GMT -5
It is the state's right and obligation to 'interject' into public schools. If you don't think a State has this right - then get rid of public (Government) schools. Failure to recognize that an unborn human could have rights is just being plain dishonest on the issue of abortion (just as dismissing the women's right to control her how body for those on the other side). To say that a government has no role in abortion and the life of the unborn - is the same as saying the government has no role in murder, assault, etc... Roe was the Government inserting their will on individual rights. There is no neutral action that could be done here. DeSantis continues to get hit with lies and 'hit' pieces from the media. This isn't unusual - every legit Presidential candidate is going to face this. People are going to choose to believe what they want to. So, you are arguing to do away with public schools to save kids from power-hungry, authoritarian governor overreach? That is an interesting position. The claim that a fetus is an unborn human with full rights (that usurp the rights of the mother, apparently) is a new evangelical Christian construct that goes against thousands of years of established precedent and it is pure conceit and anti-American to impose your new-found religious views on the rest of society. DeSantis continues to do things precisely to create controversy and get you excited. The criticism of him from most of the political spectrum is justified and deserved but it gets you excited, and he is calculating that after he snows you into giving him the nomination, that he can soften his stance for the general election. Government schools have to answer to the Government - there is no other way. If you don't want the Government involved with public schools - then they would need to become private schools. It is one or the other. Your abortion comment is 100% a straw man. I never said that an unborn human deserves full rights (or that their rights take precedence over the mother) - but I think it is intellectually dishonest to say they have no rights. Through Roe - rights of the unborn human came at the point of viability. Some believe some rights occur at heartbeat. Some think it is at conception and others think never. I gather you land at one of those Extreme positions? I am in the middle. As to the last part of your comment - that is pure ignorance about me. As for DeSantis - so you don't like Conservatives or Republicans - good for you. Interesting how you attach negative opinions of motives and intellect for political thought you disagree with that you probably don't with things you do agree with.
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trojansc
Legend
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Post by trojansc on Mar 14, 2023 13:18:44 GMT -5
Complaints about DeSantis go further than just simply being a left/right issue. I’m concerned about my home state of Florida particularly in the education realm.
I think one can say DeSantis may be targeted by some (incl. Trump) because of his chances of being president.
But there are legitimate concerns to be had. What he is doing in Florida sets him apart from other candidates. You can’t downplay that by saying he’s getting targeted because he could take over the presidency.
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Post by donut on Mar 14, 2023 13:25:21 GMT -5
It's predictable that "libertarian" bluepenquin defends DeSantis, a guy who keeps interjecting the government into private decisions like abortion and corporate policies on how businesses interact with their employees and customers. And also a guy who has tried to centralize into his own hands as much power as he can take from local governments. Not to mention interjecting the governor's office into schools from kindergarten to graduate programs. It is the state's right and obligation to 'interject' into public schools. If you don't think a State has this right - then get rid of public (Government) schools. Lmao not this again
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Post by oldnewbie on Mar 14, 2023 14:16:14 GMT -5
So, you are arguing to do away with public schools to save kids from power-hungry, authoritarian governor overreach? That is an interesting position. The claim that a fetus is an unborn human with full rights (that usurp the rights of the mother, apparently) is a new evangelical Christian construct that goes against thousands of years of established precedent and it is pure conceit and anti-American to impose your new-found religious views on the rest of society. DeSantis continues to do things precisely to create controversy and get you excited. The criticism of him from most of the political spectrum is justified and deserved but it gets you excited, and he is calculating that after he snows you into giving him the nomination, that he can soften his stance for the general election. Government schools have to answer to the Government - there is no other way. If you don't want the Government involved with public schools - then they would need to become private schools. It is one or the other. Your abortion comment is 100% a straw man. I never said that an unborn human deserves full rights (or that their rights take precedence over the mother) - but I think it is intellectually dishonest to say they have no rights. Through Roe - rights of the unborn human came at the point of viability. Some believe some rights occur at heartbeat. Some think it is at conception and others think never. I gather you land at one of those Extreme positions? I am in the middle. As to the last part of your comment - that is pure ignorance about me. As for DeSantis - so you don't like Conservatives or Republicans - good for you. Interesting how you attach negative opinions of motives and intellect for political thought you disagree with that you probably don't with things you do agree with. There is a major difference between decentralized, community run public schools and one man dictating from the top. They are both public schools, but they are fundamentally different, even if there is state guidance. I believe in a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher. DeSantis believes in dictating everything from his office. As for DeSantis, now you are demonstrating your ignorance of me. I like Conservatives and Republicans just fine. I don't like the party catering to evangelicals several decades back and cultivating irrelevant wedge issues like abortion, and I don't like them completely foregoing being the party of Lincoln. I find DeSantis to be a bully, a power-hungry authoritarian, and cultivator of wedge issues that he thinks will fire up the MAGA base. My abortion comments were fact, not opinion or belief. 100% strawman? You are better than that. You stated a belief, first calling a fetus an unborn human and then attributing it rights. I said that calling a fetus "an unborn human" is a historically new belief that is at odds with thousands of years of history. That is a fact. If you want to know what I believe about abortion I am more than happy to tell you, so you don't need to make it up: I believe that you may apply your own particular religious views to your own situation, but it is antithetical to the separation of church and state that the US was founded on for you to impose your religious beliefs on me, and vice versa. That is what I believe as an American. Personally, I really like this description of Jewish law, which is probably the closest approximation of what Jesus actually believed as a man, and was the essential basis of Christian law until the evangelicals recently changed it: Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception?No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body. What does Jewish law say about the rights of the person who is pregnant and the rights of the fetus? Judaism values life and affirms that protecting existing life is paramount at all stages of pregnancy. A fetus is not considered a person under Jewish law and therefore does not have the same rights as one who is already alive. As such, the interests of the pregnant individual always come before that of the fetus.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Mar 14, 2023 16:10:42 GMT -5
Government schools have to answer to the Government - there is no other way. If you don't want the Government involved with public schools - then they would need to become private schools. It is one or the other. Your abortion comment is 100% a straw man. I never said that an unborn human deserves full rights (or that their rights take precedence over the mother) - but I think it is intellectually dishonest to say they have no rights. Through Roe - rights of the unborn human came at the point of viability. Some believe some rights occur at heartbeat. Some think it is at conception and others think never. I gather you land at one of those Extreme positions? I am in the middle. As to the last part of your comment - that is pure ignorance about me. As for DeSantis - so you don't like Conservatives or Republicans - good for you. Interesting how you attach negative opinions of motives and intellect for political thought you disagree with that you probably don't with things you do agree with. There is a major difference between decentralized, community run public schools and one man dictating from the top. They are both public schools, but they are fundamentally different, even if there is state guidance. I believe in a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher. DeSantis believes in dictating everything from his office. As for DeSantis, now you are demonstrating your ignorance of me. I like Conservatives and Republicans just fine. I don't like the party catering to evangelicals several decades back and cultivating irrelevant wedge issues like abortion, and I don't like them completely foregoing being the party of Lincoln. I find DeSantis to be a bully, a power-hungry authoritarian, and cultivator of wedge issues that he thinks will fire up the MAGA base. My abortion comments were fact, not opinion or belief. 100% strawman? You are better than that. You stated a belief, first calling a fetus an unborn human and then attributing it rights. I said that calling a fetus "an unborn human" is a historically new belief that is at odds with thousands of years of history. That is a fact. If you want to know what I believe about abortion I am more than happy to tell you, so you don't need to make it up: I believe that you may apply your own particular religious views to your own situation, but it is antithetical to the separation of church and state that the US was founded on for you to impose your religious beliefs on me, and vice versa. That is what I believe as an American. Personally, I really like this description of Jewish law, which is probably the closest approximation of what Jesus actually believed as a man, and was the essential basis of Christian law until the evangelicals recently changed it: Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception?No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body. What does Jewish law say about the rights of the person who is pregnant and the rights of the fetus? Judaism values life and affirms that protecting existing life is paramount at all stages of pregnancy. A fetus is not considered a person under Jewish law and therefore does not have the same rights as one who is already alive. As such, the interests of the pregnant individual always come before that of the fetus. Why do you think I am imposing my religious views on political issues any more than you? I became a Christian about 20 years ago - my views on abortion hasn't changed since then. The Death Penalty is the one issue that comes to mind that has changed since becoming a Christian (I went from pro to opposed). But even those political beliefs are more complicated than that. How do you define the interest of the pregnant individual? I also believe the rights of pregnant individual come before the fetus. That doesn't mean that the pregnant individual just gets to kill another human. It means that the life of the mother can come before the life of the unborn baby. If you want to believe in autonomy for teachers on what they teach - then ban public schools and make them private schools.
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 14, 2023 16:14:43 GMT -5
There is a major difference between decentralized, community run public schools and one man dictating from the top. They are both public schools, but they are fundamentally different, even if there is state guidance. I believe in a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher. DeSantis believes in dictating everything from his office. As for DeSantis, now you are demonstrating your ignorance of me. I like Conservatives and Republicans just fine. I don't like the party catering to evangelicals several decades back and cultivating irrelevant wedge issues like abortion, and I don't like them completely foregoing being the party of Lincoln. I find DeSantis to be a bully, a power-hungry authoritarian, and cultivator of wedge issues that he thinks will fire up the MAGA base. My abortion comments were fact, not opinion or belief. 100% strawman? You are better than that. You stated a belief, first calling a fetus an unborn human and then attributing it rights. I said that calling a fetus "an unborn human" is a historically new belief that is at odds with thousands of years of history. That is a fact. If you want to know what I believe about abortion I am more than happy to tell you, so you don't need to make it up: I believe that you may apply your own particular religious views to your own situation, but it is antithetical to the separation of church and state that the US was founded on for you to impose your religious beliefs on me, and vice versa. That is what I believe as an American. Personally, I really like this description of Jewish law, which is probably the closest approximation of what Jesus actually believed as a man, and was the essential basis of Christian law until the evangelicals recently changed it: Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception?No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body. What does Jewish law say about the rights of the person who is pregnant and the rights of the fetus? Judaism values life and affirms that protecting existing life is paramount at all stages of pregnancy. A fetus is not considered a person under Jewish law and therefore does not have the same rights as one who is already alive. As such, the interests of the pregnant individual always come before that of the fetus. Why do you think I am imposing my religious views on political issues any more than you? I became a Christian about 20 years ago - my views on abortion hasn't changed since then. The Death Penalty is the one issue that comes to mind that has changed since becoming a Christian (I went from pro to opposed). But even those political beliefs are more complicated than that. How do you define the interest of the pregnant individual? I also believe the rights of pregnant individual come before the fetus. That doesn't mean that the pregnant individual just gets to kill another human. It means that the life of the mother can come before the life of the unborn baby. If you want to believe in autonomy for teachers on what they teach - then ban public schools and make them private schools. Your conception of public schools and the authority surrounding them is peculiar, to say the least.
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Post by BearClause on Mar 14, 2023 16:27:30 GMT -5
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Post by oldnewbie on Mar 14, 2023 17:21:48 GMT -5
There is a major difference between decentralized, community run public schools and one man dictating from the top. They are both public schools, but they are fundamentally different, even if there is state guidance. I believe in a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher. DeSantis believes in dictating everything from his office. As for DeSantis, now you are demonstrating your ignorance of me. I like Conservatives and Republicans just fine. I don't like the party catering to evangelicals several decades back and cultivating irrelevant wedge issues like abortion, and I don't like them completely foregoing being the party of Lincoln. I find DeSantis to be a bully, a power-hungry authoritarian, and cultivator of wedge issues that he thinks will fire up the MAGA base. My abortion comments were fact, not opinion or belief. 100% strawman? You are better than that. You stated a belief, first calling a fetus an unborn human and then attributing it rights. I said that calling a fetus "an unborn human" is a historically new belief that is at odds with thousands of years of history. That is a fact. If you want to know what I believe about abortion I am more than happy to tell you, so you don't need to make it up: I believe that you may apply your own particular religious views to your own situation, but it is antithetical to the separation of church and state that the US was founded on for you to impose your religious beliefs on me, and vice versa. That is what I believe as an American. Personally, I really like this description of Jewish law, which is probably the closest approximation of what Jesus actually believed as a man, and was the essential basis of Christian law until the evangelicals recently changed it: Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception?No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body. What does Jewish law say about the rights of the person who is pregnant and the rights of the fetus? Judaism values life and affirms that protecting existing life is paramount at all stages of pregnancy. A fetus is not considered a person under Jewish law and therefore does not have the same rights as one who is already alive. As such, the interests of the pregnant individual always come before that of the fetus. Why do you think I am imposing my religious views on political issues any more than you? I became a Christian about 20 years ago - my views on abortion hasn't changed since then. The Death Penalty is the one issue that comes to mind that has changed since becoming a Christian (I went from pro to opposed). But even those political beliefs are more complicated than that. How do you define the interest of the pregnant individual? I also believe the rights of pregnant individual come before the fetus. That doesn't mean that the pregnant individual just gets to kill another human. It means that the life of the mother can come before the life of the unborn baby. If you want to believe in autonomy for teachers on what they teach - then ban public schools and make them private schools. Why do I think you are imposing religious views and I am not? Pretty simply because I believe it is a private matter for a woman and it is literally none of my business, while you want to get intimately involved and dictate what she can do when, based on a recent (historically) evangelical belief system. I gave you details in my previous post and you made no comment and are acting like you didn't read it. Read it and tell me what you disagree with. As I said before, those would have been the laws that Jesus would most likely have been following as a man. I said I believed in "community run public schools" with "a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher", as opposed to "one man dictating from the top". I in no way said all teachers should have full autonomy in their classrooms to do whatever they wanted (which they could never do in a private school, by the way). Talk about a straw man.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 14, 2023 18:00:38 GMT -5
Basically, bluepenquin is willing to throw out as many rationalizations as he needs in order to hide from himself that he's perfectly fine with an autocratic, highly centralized, highly intrusive government that has power over the private lives of citizens, businesses, schools, and local elected officials -- as long as that government does the things he wants it do. "Libertarianism" at its finest.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Mar 14, 2023 21:42:14 GMT -5
Basically, bluepenquin is willing to throw out as many rationalizations as he needs in order to hide from himself that he's perfectly fine with an autocratic, highly centralized, highly intrusive government that has power over the private lives of citizens, businesses, schools, and local elected officials -- as long as that government does the things he wants it do. "Libertarianism" at its finest. Self-reporting as to one’s political temperature should always be viewed with skepticism. I think someone once said that you will know them by their fruits.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
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Post by bluepenquin on Mar 15, 2023 7:42:43 GMT -5
Why do you think I am imposing my religious views on political issues any more than you? I became a Christian about 20 years ago - my views on abortion hasn't changed since then. The Death Penalty is the one issue that comes to mind that has changed since becoming a Christian (I went from pro to opposed). But even those political beliefs are more complicated than that. How do you define the interest of the pregnant individual? I also believe the rights of pregnant individual come before the fetus. That doesn't mean that the pregnant individual just gets to kill another human. It means that the life of the mother can come before the life of the unborn baby. If you want to believe in autonomy for teachers on what they teach - then ban public schools and make them private schools. Why do I think you are imposing religious views and I am not? Pretty simply because I believe it is a private matter for a woman and it is literally none of my business, while you want to get intimately involved and dictate what she can do when, based on a recent (historically) evangelical belief system. I gave you details in my previous post and you made no comment and are acting like you didn't read it. Read it and tell me what you disagree with. As I said before, those would have been the laws that Jesus would most likely have been following as a man. I said I believed in "community run public schools" with "a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher", as opposed to "one man dictating from the top". I in no way said all teachers should have full autonomy in their classrooms to do whatever they wanted (which they could never do in a private school, by the way). Talk about a straw man. You appear to put 100% rights to the mother and 0% rights to the unborn child. Should a child that is 8 to 9 months in the womb have no rights and the mother gets 100% control to kill the baby? I think there is a point where the unborn baby should have rights to live. My view has no more to do with religion than your view. Where does 'one man at the top' dictating school come from? Why does a Democrat run state that makes decisions termed a democratic process and a Republican run state doing the same thing considered a dictatorship? Is Democracy dead in the state of Florida?
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Post by oldnewbie on Mar 15, 2023 10:12:40 GMT -5
Why do I think you are imposing religious views and I am not? Pretty simply because I believe it is a private matter for a woman and it is literally none of my business, while you want to get intimately involved and dictate what she can do when, based on a recent (historically) evangelical belief system. I gave you details in my previous post and you made no comment and are acting like you didn't read it. Read it and tell me what you disagree with. As I said before, those would have been the laws that Jesus would most likely have been following as a man. I said I believed in "community run public schools" with "a certain amount of autonomy all the way down to the teacher", as opposed to "one man dictating from the top". I in no way said all teachers should have full autonomy in their classrooms to do whatever they wanted (which they could never do in a private school, by the way). Talk about a straw man. You appear to put 100% rights to the mother and 0% rights to the unborn child. Should a child that is 8 to 9 months in the womb have no rights and the mother gets 100% control to kill the baby? I think there is a point where the unborn baby should have rights to live. My view has no more to do with religion than your view. Where does 'one man at the top' dictating school come from? Why does a Democrat run state that makes decisions termed a democratic process and a Republican run state doing the same thing considered a dictatorship? Is Democracy dead in the state of Florida? My view is irrelevant because I am not asking you to abide by it. You continue to ignore that very basic fact that is supposed to be fundamental to the laws of our country. I don't care where you want to draw what line, and I am not asking you to agree to my line. Yes, the woman is the sole advocate, and any rights of the "unborn child" come from her and through her. Why do you think you know better than the woman involved and that you should be in control of her health and well being? Why do you have such an inherent distrust of women? Why are you playing dumb regarding DeSantis? Point me to a Democratic governor that is inserting themselves directly into the core curriculum of what can be taught in such a public and divisive manner and dictating down to communities what will actually be illegal to teach, and I will be first in line to call them out. I don't know of any, so let me know. Is democracy dead in Florida? I don't think so yet, but he is certainly working hard to disenfranchise a large percentage of the state and to increase his power.
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