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Post by c4ndlelight on Nov 16, 2023 11:44:13 GMT -5
Well I've been to an evening SEC football game and it was ELECTRIC. Penn State football's biggest, rowdiest, best crowd of the season is always an evening white out game. If Washington has a crappy atmosphere, that's on them. Yeah, Penn State's white out game at night is legendary. LSU will host 100k in the stadium and another 80-100k just tailgating and they all leave well after midnight. If you build it, they will come... they have everywhere else. Or if you cannot fill your stadium, schedule an SEC team. 20,000 RV's with Tennessee plates are just a phone call away. Penn St. has one night game a year, that's a special event against a top-tier opponent and announced months in advance. PAC teams have multiple night games against random opponents scheduled with less than 2 weeks notice, leaving ticketholders scrambling to make travel and lodging plans at exorbitant prices.
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Post by baytree on Nov 16, 2023 11:59:40 GMT -5
If I was somehow required to develop a list of the Top 10 "Villains" in the PAC debacle, this would be my list: 1. Larry Scott 2. Every PAC college president who allowed Scott to underperform while being overcompensated ($50M over 13 years). 3. USC 4. George Kliavkoff with his $3.6M annual salary. 5. PAC12 Network (See #1 & #4) 6. Major TV networks that demanded PAC12 Football be scheduled at 10p in Eastern time zone. 7. ADs and college administrators who allowed #6 to happen repeatedly season after season. 8. UW 9. UO 10. Stanford (For not throwing around their weight more to improve the network and scheduling issues). Mostly right on. Except: 3. UCLA equally at fault;6. Pac schools agreed to this as part of their media rights deal. Can't blame the networks for doing it; 7. (See #6, or negotiate a reduction in revenue); 8 & 9: Colorado bailed before UW or Oregon. Utah, ASU and AZ weren't far behind; 10. In this area Stanford has no weight to throw around. No football support or viewership. If they had any value they would not be taking a 30% rights share to join the ACC. I think USC has far more blame than UCLA. UCLA isn't blameless but USC nixxed merger discussions with the Big XII. UCLA didn't have the power to do that even if they'd wanted to. That is an important event in this saga. USC also engineered the move to the B1G. UCLA was invited later. If they would have said "no", USC probably would have asked Stanford or Washington. I don't see both (either?) of them saying "no". Once that happened, it was probably a matter of time until the PAC folded.
I also put more blame on OSU and ASU than tomclen. They were Larry Scott's biggest enablers. All the presidents share blame for Larry Scott (and many other aspects of this debacle) but they have the most.
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Post by bbg95 on Nov 16, 2023 12:07:49 GMT -5
Mostly right on. Except: 3. UCLA equally at fault;6. Pac schools agreed to this as part of their media rights deal. Can't blame the networks for doing it; 7. (See #6, or negotiate a reduction in revenue); 8 & 9: Colorado bailed before UW or Oregon. Utah, ASU and AZ weren't far behind; 10. In this area Stanford has no weight to throw around. No football support or viewership. If they had any value they would not be taking a 30% rights share to join the ACC. I think USC has far more blame than UCLA. UCLA isn't blameless but USC nixxed merger discussions with the Big XII. UCLA didn't have the power to do that even if they'd wanted to. That is an important event in this saga. USC also engineered the move to the B1G. UCLA was invited later. If they would have said "no", USC probably would have asked Stanford or Washington. I don't see both (either?) of them saying "no". Once that happened, it was probably a matter of time until the PAC folded.
I also put more blame on OSU and ASU than tomclen. They were Larry Scott's biggest enablers. All the presidents share blame for Larry Scott (and many other aspects of this debacle) but they have the most.
UCLA was also one of the biggest Larry Scott enablers from everything I've read. It was those three schools that protected him the most. I also think Washington deserves a lot of the blame, since they're the ones who ultimately killed the Apple deal that could have kept the Pac-9 together.
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Post by luckydawg on Nov 16, 2023 14:31:10 GMT -5
I think USC has far more blame than UCLA. UCLA isn't blameless but USC nixxed merger discussions with the Big XII. UCLA didn't have the power to do that even if they'd wanted to. That is an important event in this saga. USC also engineered the move to the B1G. UCLA was invited later. If they would have said "no", USC probably would have asked Stanford or Washington. I don't see both (either?) of them saying "no". Once that happened, it was probably a matter of time until the PAC folded.
I also put more blame on OSU and ASU than tomclen. They were Larry Scott's biggest enablers. All the presidents share blame for Larry Scott (and many other aspects of this debacle) but they have the most.
UCLA was also one of the biggest Larry Scott enablers by from everything I've read. It was those three schools that protected him the most. I also think Washington deserves a lot of the blame, since they're the ones who ultimately killed the Apple deal that could have kept the Pac-9 together. The Apple "deal" would have killed the Pac, just a little slower. Roughly 1/3 the annual payout of other major conferences and very limited game exposure. Most viewing would require an Apple+ subscription. Even the apparent ESPN offer would only be half what other conferences receive.
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Post by bbg95 on Nov 16, 2023 15:19:33 GMT -5
UCLA was also one of the biggest Larry Scott enablers by from everything I've read. It was those three schools that protected him the most. I also think Washington deserves a lot of the blame, since they're the ones who ultimately killed the Apple deal that could have kept the Pac-9 together. The Apple "deal" would have killed the Pac, just a little slower. Roughly 1/3 the annual payout of other major conferences and very limited game exposure. Most viewing would require an Apple+ subscription. Even the apparent ESPN offer would only be half what other conferences receive. I didn't say it was a great deal. But it sounded like the other eight schools were willing to do it. You really should have just taken the $30 million per year per school that ESPN initially offered, but Utah convinced Kliavkoff to ask for $50 million instead, and ESPN went to the Big 12.
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Post by vbnerd on Nov 16, 2023 15:35:56 GMT -5
Yeah, Penn State's white out game at night is legendary. LSU will host 100k in the stadium and another 80-100k just tailgating and they all leave well after midnight. If you build it, they will come... they have everywhere else. Or if you cannot fill your stadium, schedule an SEC team. 20,000 RV's with Tennessee plates are just a phone call away. Penn St. has one night game a year, that's a special event against a top-tier opponent and announced months in advance. PAC teams have multiple night games against random opponents scheduled with less than 2 weeks notice, leaving ticketholders scrambling to make travel and lodging plans at exorbitant prices. Penn State played Rutgers this year. It's not a top tier game. Hotels get expensive when 100,000 people come to a town of 25,000, but it doesn't stop them from supporting other schools. Fans who are in town all weekend don't need to wait until 2 weeks out to book their trip. The problem is you are describing fans of convenience instead of die-hards and that in and of itself is an actual problem. Well adjusted rational fans are not what make college football tick - Look at Texas A&M paying over $20 million per year for a football coach once the buyout is factored in - Colleges that operate responsibly and whos fans tolerate sanity are a poor fit for today's college football landscape.
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Post by n00b on Nov 16, 2023 15:52:52 GMT -5
Penn St. has one night game a year, that's a special event against a top-tier opponent and announced months in advance. PAC teams have multiple night games against random opponents scheduled with less than 2 weeks notice, leaving ticketholders scrambling to make travel and lodging plans at exorbitant prices. Penn State played Rutgers this year. It's not a top tier game. Hotels get expensive when 100,000 people come to a town of 25,000, but it doesn't stop them from supporting other schools. Fans who are in town all weekend don't need to wait until 2 weeks out to book their trip. The problem is you are describing fans of convenience instead of die-hards and that in and of itself is an actual problem. Well adjusted rational fans are not what make college football tick - Look at Texas A&M paying over $20 million per year for a football coach once the buyout is factored in - Colleges that operate responsibly and whos fans tolerate sanity are a poor fit for today's college football landscape. Right. And the SEC night game I described earlier had a lot of the same issues he bemoaned. Unranked opponent. Found out the start time less than a week in advance. And the game was sold out and electric. The PAC-12 fell apart because they don’t have the loyal diehard fan bases that the Big Ten and SEC programs have. They’re now getting a lifeline now because they can provide 10pm ET kickoffs. So if THATS their issue, it’ll only get worse.
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Post by bigfan on Nov 16, 2023 16:54:52 GMT -5
Well adjusted rational fans are not what make college football tick. Colleges that operate responsibly and whos fans tolerate sanity are a poor fit for today's college football landscape.
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Post by baytree on Nov 16, 2023 17:20:38 GMT -5
As expected, the ruling giving full control of the PAC to OSU and WSU has been stayed until Washington's motion for an emergency stay can be ruled on by the Washington Supreme Court. Until further order by the WA Supreme Court, the Superior Court's temporary restraining order remains in effect. That order prohibits the PAC board of directors from holding any meeting or taking any action without the unanimous consent of all 12 members.
"The Pac-12’s internecine legal battle took an expected turn Thursday when the Washington Supreme Court temporarily paused the implementation of a ruling issued earlier this week that gave control of the conference to Washington State and Oregon State.
the temporary stay of a preliminary injunction was issued by the court’s deputy commissioner and is largely procedural in effect:
It gives both the plaintiffs (WSU and OSU) and the defendant, Washington, a chance to submit their legal briefs before the Evergreen State’s highest court decides whether to rule on a motion for an emergency stay."
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Post by staticb on Nov 16, 2023 17:39:19 GMT -5
The hearing was streamed and Washington's lawyer was embarrassingly bad.
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Post by ay2013 on Nov 16, 2023 18:55:34 GMT -5
Penn State played Rutgers this year. It's not a top tier game. Hotels get expensive when 100,000 people come to a town of 25,000, but it doesn't stop them from supporting other schools. Fans who are in town all weekend don't need to wait until 2 weeks out to book their trip. The problem is you are describing fans of convenience instead of die-hards and that in and of itself is an actual problem. Well adjusted rational fans are not what make college football tick - Look at Texas A&M paying over $20 million per year for a football coach once the buyout is factored in - Colleges that operate responsibly and whos fans tolerate sanity are a poor fit for today's college football landscape. Right. And the SEC night game I described earlier had a lot of the same issues he bemoaned. Unranked opponent. Found out the start time less than a week in advance. And the game was sold out and electric. The PAC-12 fell apart because they don’t have the loyal diehard fan bases that the Big Ten and SEC programs have. They’re now getting a lifeline now because they can provide 10pm ET kickoffs. So if THATS their issue, it’ll only get worse. 💯. I’ve been saying this for YEARS. Interest in the traditional college money making sports have been waning out west for quite some time, which, on its own, is perfectly ok, it’s just that some people fail to see that. We don’t all HAVE to care about football, and it’s been obvious to me that we don’t. When I went to UW back in the mid 2000’s, I’d only go to about half the football games. And now, as an “alumni”, sure I think it’s great when UW does well, but the most I do is keep up with the scoreboard on ESPN. Here on the west coast, there are more people my age and younger that will spend thousands of dollars on a trip to Vegas to watch some random DJ at a night club or festival than who know the current starting quarterback of their Alma Mater football team. I have been saying since day one that the Big 10 overpaid for the LA schools and I really don’t understand the must have “big fish” that USC purports itself to be. They haven’t sold out one home match this year, and the only time the program has ranked in tv viewership is when they play OTHER teams that are driving the ratings, and this is in a year with big expectations, they started ranked in the top 10! If that doesn’t scream a program in great decline, I do not know what does.
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Post by tomclen on Dec 1, 2023 5:36:26 GMT -5
As someone who remembers turning on my first nice color television in the 70's on a freezy, snowing miserable Saturday evening in Baltimore and seeing the sunshine and beautiful colors of the UCLA and USC football uniforms and the bands and the "pageantry and beauty" commentary of Keith Jackson and being mesmerized, this "obituary" for the PAC by Chuck Culpepper really hits home. It may be paywalled for you, but if not, you can read the FULL STORY HERE
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Post by slxpress on Dec 1, 2023 5:40:20 GMT -5
As someone who remembers turning on my first nice color television in the 70's on a freezy, snowing miserable Saturday evening in Baltimore and seeing the sunshine and beautiful colors of the UCLA and USC football uniforms and the bands and the "pageantry and beauty" commentary of Keith Jackson and being mesmerized, this "obituary" for the PAC by Chuck Culpepper really hits home. It may be paywalled for you, but if not, you can read the FULL STORY HEREI didn’t read the whole article, but those excerpts are some really good writing.
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Post by slxpress on Dec 1, 2023 5:54:39 GMT -5
Right. And the SEC night game I described earlier had a lot of the same issues he bemoaned. Unranked opponent. Found out the start time less than a week in advance. And the game was sold out and electric. The PAC-12 fell apart because they don’t have the loyal diehard fan bases that the Big Ten and SEC programs have. They’re now getting a lifeline now because they can provide 10pm ET kickoffs. So if THATS their issue, it’ll only get worse. 💯. I’ve been saying this for YEARS. Interest in the traditional college money making sports have been waning out west for quite some time, which, on its own, is perfectly ok, it’s just that some people fail to see that. We don’t all HAVE to care about football, and it’s been obvious to me that we don’t. When I went to UW back in the mid 2000’s, I’d only go to about half the football games. And now, as an “alumni”, sure I think it’s great when UW does well, but the most I do is keep up with the scoreboard on ESPN. Here on the west coast, there are more people my age and younger that will spend thousands of dollars on a trip to Vegas to watch some random DJ at a night club or festival than who know the current starting quarterback of their Alma Mater football team. I have been saying since day one that the Big 10 overpaid for the LA schools and I really don’t understand the must have “big fish” that USC purports itself to be. They haven’t sold out one home match this year, and the only time the program has ranked in tv viewership is when they play OTHER teams that are driving the ratings, and this is in a year with big expectations, they started ranked in the top 10! If that doesn’t scream a program in great decline, I do not know what does. I still feel like the move of OU/TX to the SEC precipitated in some ways the USC/UCLA move. Plenty of people at Texas pushed for a move to the Big 10. There’s an elitist snobby look down our nose mentality regarding the SEC. The head of the board of regents doesn’t share that view, but a lot of people do. And the longtime chancellor at OU, David Boren, has practically begged to get into the Big 10 for a couple of decades. But the Big 10 wanted a transparent process that may or may not have succeeded in extending an invitation, just like they did for their other expansions, and that was political anathema for both Texas and OU. Particularly Texas. So they went with Sankey’s guarantee of a clandestine move to extend an invitation without even involving A&M until it was too late, to present an invitation in an off year for the Texas legislature with a Texas alum as the sitting governor, so that the move was fait accompli before political forces could intercede in the ways they had done previously at Texas Tech and Baylor upon the formation of the Big 12. I feel like Fox panicked at something similar happening with USC, and so they pressured the Big 10 to get the two former Pac 12 schools under wraps in a process that was anything but transparent. Probably a good thing, too, for UCLA, otherwise it looks apparent the California Boatd of Regents would have nixed the deal without bringing UC-Berkeley along. The fear of the SEC/ESPN taking the L.A. TV market out from under Fox in the city where their headquarters are located lead to the overpayment you allude to. Whether that was a realistic fear or not.
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Post by tomclen on Dec 10, 2023 7:22:43 GMT -5
We have now reached the point where the mourners are starting to leave the cemetery and go on with their lives.
Despite the sword of Damocles hanging over the entire conference since before this VB season began, some of us had this weird (but somewhat reasonable) hope that the PAC might get 2 or more teams in the finals.
Sure, there was Stanford and Oregon, but at one point some of us were looking at WSU, UCLA and then ASU as maybe FF material.
But now the Card and the Ducks have exited stage left and, sadly, PAC12 volleyball is something that no longer exists.
It was a good run.
R.I.P.
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