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Post by bbg95 on Dec 20, 2023 21:58:24 GMT -5
Per this article, Wazzu and Oregon St are expected to join WCC for non-football/baseball sports for next 2 seasons. Formal vote tomorrow morning. Obviously the WCC doesn't have football, but why not baseball? The article explains that they will be independent. Oregon State has a very good baseball program. Three national titles in the last 20 years.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 20, 2023 22:07:05 GMT -5
Obviously the WCC doesn't have football, but why not baseball? The article explains that they will be independent. Oregon State has a very good baseball program. Three national titles in the last 20 years. WSU has historically been pretty good at baseball too, though that was more back in the 50s-80s.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 20, 2023 23:55:51 GMT -5
Sure, it makes sense for the Pac-2, but the WCC hasn't had a public school as a member since the 1970s. Granted, this is only a two-year arrangement. Gonzaga calls the shots in the WCC, and I wonder if Pullman's close proximity to Spokane made this more palatable for them. I also wonder if former WCC and current Mountain West commissioner Gloria Nevarez may have helped to broker this agreement. I think that in the long run, Oregon State and Washington State will end up merging with some or all of the Mountain West under the Pac-12 umbrella, but this seems like a good stopgap for now. Have read any of the reports - but it would seem that WSU and OSU would be best served to create a new P12 with the schools of their choice rather than just join the MWC. If they can keep P12 alive while doing this - than this is their best solution. It would allow time for those MWC/AAC schools to make their exit to the P12 and create a clear #5 conference (at least that would be the hope). Like you said - not sure what WCC gets out of this. Does OSU/WSU have any kind of MBB program right now that could earn the conference some NCAA tournament money? Maybe it is marginally better conference competition for Gonzaga? I am guessing the WCC doesn't lose money per school doing this? So my understanding is that the issue is that the Mountain West exit fees are really high. So that's why there has been talk of a reverse merger where some or all of the Mountain West schools (at a minimum, it would have to be enough to vote to waive the exit fees) join the Pac-12 en masse. And in this scenario, Nevarez and the rest of the Mountain West leadership would run the new conference, since they're a million times better than Kliavkoff and company.
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Post by staticb on Dec 21, 2023 1:01:44 GMT -5
The Mountain West is a mess for travel. Many of the schools are outposts. The closest are Wyoming to Colorado St (1 hr 5 mins), Colorado St to Air Force (2 hrs), and San Jose St to Fresno St (2 hrs 40 mins). The rest are much further: Boise St to Utah St (4 hrs 20 mins). San Diego St to UNLV (5 hrs 10 mins). Reno to San Jose St (4 hrs). Air Force to New Mexico (5 hrs 45 mins). This would be some tiresome travel for the Volleyball team. I agree the WCC is better for most sports--but if you're going to align with the MWC then you definitely want their basketball, arguably that's their crown jewel sport right now. I'm assuming they will go with the Big West for baseball?
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Post by brooselee on Dec 21, 2023 1:18:42 GMT -5
The Mountain West is a mess for travel. Many of the schools are outposts. The closest are Wyoming to Colorado St (1 hr 5 mins), Colorado St to Air Force (2 hrs), and San Jose St to Fresno St (2 hrs 40 mins). The rest are much further: Boise St to Utah St (4 hrs 20 mins). San Diego St to UNLV (5 hrs 10 mins). Reno to San Jose St (4 hrs). Air Force to New Mexico (5 hrs 45 mins). This would be some tiresome travel for the Volleyball team. I agree the WCC is better for most sports--but if you're going to align with the MWC then you definitely want their basketball, arguably that's their crown jewel sport right now. I'm assuming they will go with the Big West for baseball? I don’t think so. WCC have baseball too and they will be better off in the WCC. The BW would probably require WSU and OSU to pay travel subsidies since BW schools have no football to help with travel expenses since they are primarily a California league (with the exception of Hawaii).
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Post by staticb on Dec 21, 2023 1:28:36 GMT -5
I don’t think so. WCC have baseball too and they will be better off in the WCC. The BW would probably require WSU and OSU to pay travel subsidies since BW schools have no football to help with travel expenses since they are primarily a California league (with the exception of Hawaii). If they were in the WCC for baseball too wouldn't they have announced it? It was weirdly left off. They are paying the WCC and the MWC for scheduling them, so at this point it probably wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 21, 2023 1:30:38 GMT -5
I don’t think so. WCC have baseball too and they will be better off in the WCC. The BW would probably require WSU and OSU to pay travel subsidies since BW schools have no football to help with travel expenses since they are primarily a California league (with the exception of Hawaii). If they were in the WCC for baseball too wouldn't they have announced it? It was weirdly left off. They are paying the WCC and the MWC for scheduling them, so at this point it probably wouldn't be an issue. Both schools will be independent in baseball in the near term according to the article. I imagine Oregon State will try to line up a lot of good opponents somewhat similar to the way Gonzaga men's basketball has operated in the last couple of decades, though they'll do it without an actual conference. Edit: based on a quick look online, it seems that maybe the independent plan isn't totally set in stone. So maybe they will join the WCC in that too.
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Post by brooselee on Dec 21, 2023 3:02:54 GMT -5
If they were in the WCC for baseball too wouldn't they have announced it? It was weirdly left off. They are paying the WCC and the MWC for scheduling them, so at this point it probably wouldn't be an issue. Both schools will be independent in baseball in the near term according to the article. I imagine Oregon State will try to line up a lot of good opponents somewhat similar to the way Gonzaga men's basketball has operated in the last couple of decades, though they'll do it without an actual conference. Edit: based on a quick look online, it seems that maybe the independent plan isn't totally set in stone. So maybe they will join the WCC in that too. Not good strategy. There will be no all conference award for individual players and no auto bid. WSU/OSU practically have to end up with sone some kind of gaudy winning record to get into postseason. In a conference, you just have to be #1 in your conference at the end of the year and you’re post season bound. Why not just join the WCC? What’s the down side if the WCC is willing to accept you? Also during conference season, teams don’t like to use their front line pitcher for non conference games. OSU and WSU will have to find teams that are willing to play in non conference games in the middle of conference season. That will be a challenge.
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Post by ay2013 on Dec 21, 2023 4:32:09 GMT -5
Why not just join the WCC? What’s the down side if the WCC is willing to accept you? Well, based on the conference charter (or at least the WA Superior Court's interpretation of the Charter), if WSU and OSU leave the Pac-12 to join the WCC, they relinquish their right to vote on the board for the conference, which, as the last two remaining members of the Pac-12, would bring up some interesting legal questions - what does notice to leave the conference mean, to whom is notice being given, and if there is nobody to give notice to, who has the right to control the assets?
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Post by tomclen on Dec 21, 2023 5:26:12 GMT -5
Why not just join the WCC? What’s the down side if the WCC is willing to accept you? Well, based on the conference charter (or at least the WA Superior Court's interpretation of the Charter), if WSU and OSU leave the Pac-12 to join the WCC, they relinquish their right to vote on the board for the conference, which, as the last two remaining members of the Pac-12, would bring up some interesting legal questions - what does notice to leave the conference mean, to whom is notice being given, and if there is nobody to give notice to, who has the right to control the assets? Related, what is the status of the PAC12 Network. I'm not pining for it to survive, but does it still even exist? Will it stay in operation through the basketball season? If so, what happens then?
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 21, 2023 5:41:01 GMT -5
Well, based on the conference charter (or at least the WA Superior Court's interpretation of the Charter), if WSU and OSU leave the Pac-12 to join the WCC, they relinquish their right to vote on the board for the conference, which, as the last two remaining members of the Pac-12, would bring up some interesting legal questions - what does notice to leave the conference mean, to whom is notice being given, and if there is nobody to give notice to, who has the right to control the assets? Related, what is the status of the PAC12 Network. I'm not pining for it to survive, but does it still even exist? Will it stay in operation through the basketball season? If so, what happens then? Pretty sure the current PAC-12 and PAC-12 Network are all still in force until June 2024.
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Post by vbnerd on Dec 21, 2023 10:16:41 GMT -5
In the football deal with the MWC, if the Pac DOESN'T take the whole MWC they are going to start writing checks. We know that much, but I haven't heard an amount. Honestly, I might be ok with buying out some of them to avoid being tied to them...
After losing the rest of the Pac 12, Oregon State and Washington State are expected to be higher, but within $20 million of Air Force.
2022–23 Revenue by MWC School
Air Force. $76,587,462 SDSU $65,897,302 UNLV. $64,243,413 Colorado St $61,263,230 Fresno St$54,124,579 Boise St $50,569,147 Wyoming $50,255,884 Hawaii $49,422,827 Nevada $47,946,637 New Mexico $44,881,065 Utah St. $43,157,838 SJSU. $39,030,222
I think they are going to end up with the whole MWC but personally I think I'd take 9 football schools and 3 non-football schools - Gonzaga, maybe LMU to get into LA and see if someone like Pepperdine, Beach, or Creighton would be interested.
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Post by n00b on Dec 21, 2023 11:43:55 GMT -5
In the football deal with the MWC, if the Pac DOESN'T take the whole MWC they are going to start writing checks. We know that much, but I haven't heard an amount. Honestly, I might be ok with buying out some of them to avoid being tied to them... After losing the rest of the Pac 12, Oregon State and Washington State are expected to be higher, but within $20 million of Air Force. 2022–23 Revenue by MWC School Air Force. $76,587,462 SDSU $65,897,302 UNLV. $64,243,413 Colorado St $61,263,230 Fresno St$54,124,579 Boise St $50,569,147 Wyoming $50,255,884 Hawaii $49,422,827 Nevada $47,946,637 New Mexico $44,881,065 Utah St. $43,157,838 SJSU. $39,030,222 I think they are going to end up with the whole MWC but personally I think I'd take 9 football schools and 3 non-football schools - Gonzaga, maybe LMU to get into LA and see if someone like Pepperdine, Beach, or Creighton would be interested. Creighton is in the premier basketball-only conference in the country. No chance they leave for this odd assortment of teams. Is that conference better at basketball than the WCC? Basketball-only schools won't get a share of the football money. And conference decisions will be centered around football. There's a reason the old Big East fell apart. Basketball schools don't want conference decisions to be centered around football, and they absolutely will in the new Pac-12. I don't think any of those WCC schools would be interested. Maybe Long Beach because the Big West is significantly worse at basketball than the WCC.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Dec 21, 2023 15:18:43 GMT -5
Have read any of the reports - but it would seem that WSU and OSU would be best served to create a new P12 with the schools of their choice rather than just join the MWC. If they can keep P12 alive while doing this - than this is their best solution. It would allow time for those MWC/AAC schools to make their exit to the P12 and create a clear #5 conference (at least that would be the hope). Like you said - not sure what WCC gets out of this. Does OSU/WSU have any kind of MBB program right now that could earn the conference some NCAA tournament money? Maybe it is marginally better conference competition for Gonzaga? I am guessing the WCC doesn't lose money per school doing this? So my understanding is that the issue is that the Mountain West exit fees are really high. So that's why there has been talk of a reverse merger where some or all of the Mountain West schools (at a minimum, it would have to be enough to vote to waive the exit fees) join the Pac-12 en masse. And in this scenario, Nevarez and the rest of the Mountain West leadership would run the new conference, since they're a million times better than Kliavkoff and company. MWC exit fee is $17M if you provide 1 year notice and $34M if less than 1 year. I guess I was thinking 2 years notice and no exit fee (but that is probably wrong?). In which case - any MWC school could give notice before 6/30/24 and be able to leave the conference with no exit fee for the 2026/27 season. That would fit with the desired 2-year agreement with the WCC for the PAC-2. But this was just my wild guess understanding w/o reading from the 'experts'.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 21, 2023 15:38:02 GMT -5
I still expect that WSU and OSU will eventually form a new PAC, probably by merging with one of the existing western conferences. WCC is kind of a bad fit because no football, but they might get past that and cut the football teams loose to join another conference.
I see this two-year deal as mainly breathing space for them to negotiate with other conferences. I expect the brand name value and historical assets of the PAC will lead to the new conference using that name again.
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