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Post by ajm on Nov 15, 2023 16:35:57 GMT -5
My guess is they are running it late in the year to not interfere with the Olympics/ FIVB events. The y probably won’t full fields unlike some of their events earlier this year. that was my guess tooWill the Olympians even be interested in participating full time in the fall after returning from Paris? Will the AVP offer enough incentive for them to do so? After Toyko, Alix and April didn't play the Atlanta Gold Series, which had $100K in prize money, and they would have been a near lock to win the $20K first prize. If they paid each player a $10K salary + bonuses for the League (same minimum as what AU indoor players get for a 5-week season) that's already at least $320K for an eight team league with four players each. I could easily imagine top players saying they need a break after the grind of the Olympic cycle and that an extra $10K isn't enough to get them to commit to this new league team format.
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Post by houdini on Nov 15, 2023 16:57:00 GMT -5
Instead of a two team format,I think four-team competitions with winner vs winner and points allocated for 1st to 4th place finishes would help keep some of the intrigue of tournament elimination competitions. A 45 minute break for burgers & beer & half-time show would suffice between matches.
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Post by blackmambabeto on Nov 15, 2023 18:33:44 GMT -5
Will the Olympians even be interested in participating full time in the fall after returning from Paris? Will the AVP offer enough incentive for them to do so? After Toyko, Alix and April didn't play the Atlanta Gold Series, which had $100K in prize money, and they would have been a near lock to win the $20K first prize. If they paid each player a $10K salary + bonuses for the League (same minimum as what AU indoor players get for a 5-week season) that's already at least $320K for an eight team league with four players each. I could easily imagine top players saying they need a break after the grind of the Olympic cycle and that an extra $10K isn't enough to get them to commit to this new league team format. money talks
would help if the players got a boost from their individual sponsors too
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Post by robvolei on Nov 15, 2023 21:58:12 GMT -5
For your response to number 1. I wasn't around for that period, but I wonder at it's long term stability. What led to the downfall of that era? I'd say it was two eras really. The truly golden years (basically everything involving Randy Stoklos) and then the early aughts Armato period. Both had great play, big crowds and a lot of lifestyle. I was watching a video of Jennings/Fuerby playing Rosie/Witt and I was surprised to see a bikini contest (or Nautica bikini fashion show, something like that). I hadn't remembered how aggressively the tour went back to the lifestyle aspect in the early 200s. The first ended because of mismanagement and the loss of key sponsors, mostly Cuervo for mainly coincidental reasons and Miller for a variety of reaons, but a big one was the players mismanaging the sport and the money. A contributing factor was many of the great promoters of the sport got old and retired leaving players like Karch, Kent, etc. at the top. Players who more took the sport for granted. (but sponsor loss was the big one). The Armato aughts failure, I think had to do with the players refusing a sale and overestimating what they were actually worth, although others would know that better than I. But when you watch video from either of those eras, you see sponsors like Ford, Coppertone, Miller of course, Sunkist, etc. Big, national brands with huge budgets that wanted to use the AVP to actually sell products. Most of the current sponsors are either tiny, niche companies or ones owned by people interested in the game, i.e. charity. I am equally unsure of the long term stability but to robvolei and Kent's suggestion about the players taking over, I'd point out that at least three times, players running things, or contributing to it, has resulted in disasters (plus the current players are not exactly Sinjin Smith in terms of promoting the game) Good points. Current sponsors probably lose money. The players barely promote their sponsors as well. Weird relationship. The current crop of players couldn't run the AVP or their own pro-league. The old school guys were more business minded, serious about growing the sport, e.g., Karch, Sinjin, Kent and Stoklos.
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Post by guest2 on Nov 16, 2023 0:21:57 GMT -5
Will the Olympians even be interested in participating full time in the fall after returning from Paris? Will the AVP offer enough incentive for them to do so? After Toyko, Alix and April didn't play the Atlanta Gold Series, which had $100K in prize money, and they would have been a near lock to win the $20K first prize. If they paid each player a $10K salary + bonuses for the League (same minimum as what AU indoor players get for a 5-week season) that's already at least $320K for an eight team league with four players each. I could easily imagine top players saying they need a break after the grind of the Olympic cycle and that an extra $10K isn't enough to get them to commit to this new league team format. The Ateam were in a position to make a huge amount of money from their gold medal. Not sure any other teams can afford to turn down that type of money. Slaes played the post-Olympic events, despite their personal animus' which I think was a more accurate indicator of where at least 3 of the US teams will probably be post-Olympics
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Post by ajm on Nov 16, 2023 7:22:23 GMT -5
Will the Olympians even be interested in participating full time in the fall after returning from Paris? Will the AVP offer enough incentive for them to do so? After Toyko, Alix and April didn't play the Atlanta Gold Series, which had $100K in prize money, and they would have been a near lock to win the $20K first prize. If they paid each player a $10K salary + bonuses for the League (same minimum as what AU indoor players get for a 5-week season) that's already at least $320K for an eight team league with four players each. I could easily imagine top players saying they need a break after the grind of the Olympic cycle and that an extra $10K isn't enough to get them to commit to this new league team format. The Ateam were in a position to make a huge amount of money from their gold medal. Not sure any other teams can afford to turn down that type of money. Slaes played the post-Olympic events, despite their personal animus' which I think was a more accurate indicator of where at least 3 of the US teams will probably be post-Olympics On the other hand, we live in an era where the top players don’t always seem to be motivated by money. Sponcil and Cannon repeatedly skipped the biggest money events. And Partain has apparently decided against a lucrative indoor career.
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Post by duckconference on Nov 18, 2023 12:06:45 GMT -5
Speaking of money, are they expecting each city-team to have an owner that's providing funding? How many have they signed up?
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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 18, 2023 16:39:42 GMT -5
I'd say it was two eras really. The truly golden years (basically everything involving Randy Stoklos) and then the early aughts Armato period. Both had great play, big crowds and a lot of lifestyle. I was watching a video of Jennings/Fuerby playing Rosie/Witt and I was surprised to see a bikini contest (or Nautica bikini fashion show, something like that). I hadn't remembered how aggressively the tour went back to the lifestyle aspect in the early 200s. The first ended because of mismanagement and the loss of key sponsors, mostly Cuervo for mainly coincidental reasons and Miller for a variety of reaons, but a big one was the players mismanaging the sport and the money. A contributing factor was many of the great promoters of the sport got old and retired leaving players like Karch, Kent, etc. at the top. Players who more took the sport for granted. (but sponsor loss was the big one). The Armato aughts failure, I think had to do with the players refusing a sale and overestimating what they were actually worth, although others would know that better than I. But when you watch video from either of those eras, you see sponsors like Ford, Coppertone, Miller of course, Sunkist, etc. Big, national brands with huge budgets that wanted to use the AVP to actually sell products. Most of the current sponsors are either tiny, niche companies or ones owned by people interested in the game, i.e. charity. I am equally unsure of the long term stability but to robvolei and Kent's suggestion about the players taking over, I'd point out that at least three times, players running things, or contributing to it, has resulted in disasters (plus the current players are not exactly Sinjin Smith in terms of promoting the game) Good points. Current sponsors probably lose money. The players barely promote their sponsors as well. Weird relationship. The current crop of players couldn't run the AVP or their own pro-league. The old school guys were more business minded, serious about growing the sport, e.g., Karch, Sinjin, Kent and Stoklos. they were much smarter people ... that's part of what makes a player business minded. All 4 of those guys are UCLA, with one being UCLA transferred from Stanford Jr. University.
The most vocal current player has said he never paid attention in class and figured the goal of school was to find a way to not flunk out so he could remain eligible. What a difference. This is part of the problem created by Universities when they admit "students" who don't actually fit, at all, as students. In non-revenue sports it leaves alumni "student"-athletes with few cognitive tools to solve the problem of how to make a living in the real world.
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Post by guest2 on Nov 18, 2023 16:48:04 GMT -5
Good points. Current sponsors probably lose money. The players barely promote their sponsors as well. Weird relationship. The current crop of players couldn't run the AVP or their own pro-league. The old school guys were more business minded, serious about growing the sport, e.g., Karch, Sinjin, Kent and Stoklos. they were much smarter people ... that's part of what makes a player business minded. All 4 of those guys are UCLA, with one being both UCLA and Stanford. The most vocal current player has said he never paid attention in class and figured the goal of school was to find a way to not flunk out so he could remain eligible. What a difference. Not sure I agree with the sweeping assertion of anyone who went to UCLA and Stanford is smart and capable versus others, but as relates to the AVP's growth, it isn't that accurate anyway. In terms of the guys who really made the AVP a success, Hov was USC, Dodd was San Diego State, Sinjin was UCLA, and Randy was two years of JUCO and I think 1 or 2 years at UCLA. Jon Stevenson who was president of the AVP for a good part of the early years, was UC Santa Barbara Karch and Kent were more beneficiaries than driving forces behind the success and growth of the sport. Karch was a part time player until 1992, by which time most of the work had been done, and his time on the AVP board was synonymous with mismanagement. (Steffes himself has made various assertions about Karch's time and work in that role). Your larger point about the current group versus the pioneers seems valid though
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Post by dunninla3 on Nov 18, 2023 16:55:55 GMT -5
they were much smarter people ... that's part of what makes a player business minded. All 4 of those guys are UCLA, with one being both UCLA and Stanford. The most vocal current player has said he never paid attention in class and figured the goal of school was to find a way to not flunk out so he could remain eligible. What a difference. Not sure I agree with the sweeping assertion of anyone who went to UCLA and Stanford is smart and capable versus others, but as relates to the AVP's growth, it isn't that accurate anyway. In terms of the guys who really made the AVP a success, Hov was USC, Dodd was San Diego State, Sinjin was UCLA, and Randy was two years of JUCO and I think 1 or 2 years at UCLA. Jon Stevenson who was president of the AVP for a good part of the early years, was UC Santa Barbara Karch and Kent were more beneficiaries than driving forces behind the success and growth of the sport. Karch was a part time player until 1992, by which time most of the work had been done, and his time on the AVP board was synonymous with mismanagement. (Steffes himself has made various assertions about Karch's time and work in that role). No, UCLA and Stanford doesn't make a person smart. They were smart before they went there. However, the book "Harvard Schmarvard" demonstrated that the university itself doesn't actually do anything to make a person smarter or more prepared for success in life. It's either already there in High School, or it isn't. If a smart person chooses to attend a lesser regarded school closer to home, or less expensive, or for other personal reasons, they don't become any less smart for doing so, and their success in life is unaffected. Dodd especially, also Hov, were smart guys. Didn't matter where they went to school.
So, you are right. Those six guys were all smart, though.
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Post by sandband on Dec 3, 2023 16:34:02 GMT -5
The significant issue I have with the "team" plan is that it runs from September through November, against football season and NCAA women's indoor volleyball. Beach volleyball is a summer sport. If the team component is to be established, it needs to be done in the prime time for beach volleyball, the summer. The only traditional tournament that needs to be worked around is the Manhattan Beach Open in the third week of August. The Paris Olympics end the week before. Convolute the other events with a bracket format at the beginning and the end of the team schedule for one year. What does it matter in this new dynamic? I agree! beach Vb is a SUMMER SPORT! Why would fans come during winter to watch?
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Post by sandband on Dec 3, 2023 16:35:20 GMT -5
AVP needs to take notes on how pickleball was made into a household name.. I don’t think it came from their tournament format. 🤔
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Post by sandband on Jan 16, 2024 17:35:12 GMT -5
Has anyone heard what the avp schedule is going to be this year or when they’re going to announce it?
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Post by cribbit on Jan 17, 2024 2:50:28 GMT -5
Has anyone heard what the avp schedule is going to be this year or when they’re going to announce it? Insider info rumors is that a lot is still up in the air, including whether certain events will happen at all.
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Post by ajm on Jan 17, 2024 13:16:32 GMT -5
Has anyone heard what the avp schedule is going to be this year or when they’re going to announce it? Insider info rumors is that a lot is still up in the air, including whether certain events will happen at all. On the Sandcast mailbag episode they hinted that the Heritage Series would be Miami, Atlanta, Manhattan Beach, and Chicago. Which are rumored to be in danger of cancellation? My guess is Atlanta although I could see scrapping Miami also. Would you even have a series with fewer than three events?
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