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Post by nederlander on Dec 14, 2023 8:34:09 GMT -5
A lot of it comes down to wording. To say that males have a fundamental physical advantage isn't saying males are better athletes. I don't believe men are better athletes than women. I believe their bodies are different, and their maximum capabilites are different, but that's saying very different things.
In my high school we had as many top female athletes as male athletes. Our best female golfer could have been one of the top three golfers on the boys team, and two girls on the cross country team could have run on varsity with the boys. This was a 5A Texas high school. They were terrific athletes. The point is that you can both praise and support women athletes, and also cite the differences, without being contradictory in doing so.
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Post by holms on Dec 14, 2023 8:43:01 GMT -5
But then where is the line? Like Tate vs Plummer but what happens when a trans women IS much taller, stronger, and jumps taller than everyone else? Then your logic really becomes void. I have so much respect for Tate and her journey and hate to see the tone-deaf article written with such disrespect. But if you are using the argument that she should be allowed because there are women that are better than her, it doesn't really hold up over time. There has to be another solution that is respectful to everyone involved and I can't say I know what it is. I am rooting for Tate and want her to be successful. But I fear we are opening a path that could ultimately damage the volleyball world. If we set certain precedents now, more and more people will follow a similar path, and what happens when one of them IS miles ahead of everyone else competing because of biological differences? I don't want my wording to give the message that I view trans athletes as "problems" because I don't. Trans athletes deserve to compete and pursue their passions the same way others do. However, I also speak with much respect in my heart towards the sport of volleyball, and the thousands of women who push themselves from a young age to be able to compete with other females. Reiterating what I said earlier, I don't know what the answer is, but I wish that everyone held a little bit more empathy and grace in their hearts for everyone involved—especially the trans athletes who are particularly at risk—while we seek to find inclusive solutions for everyone. Despite what posters have demonstrated on this thread so far, it actually IS possible to have a strong personal opinion yet participate in respectful, empathetic dialogue with all parties and all perspectives. Unfortunately though, we live in a society where the majority of people have tossed out any empathy or grace for people with opinions different than their own, and so I am sure someone will label me as something negative. All I will say is that if you are labeling people because of their opinion, instead of seeking to understand why they hold that opinion, that says a lot more about your emotional intelligence and maturity than anyone else's. People view the world the way they do because of their experiences and their exposure, and it's so important to remember that regardless of the issue at hand. Don't get me wrong, transphobia should be called out 100%, but I have had a lot more success helping friends better understand why trans rights are so important by seeking to understand their experiences and perspective while RESPECTFULLY sharing my own. Never have I changed someone's mind by labeling them and writing them off simply because we disagree. We have extremely transphobic roots, and so it makes sense why that lingers within communities today. Only respectful dialogue and more exposure will change hearts. Beautifully put, and said with so much grace. Take notes. |
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Post by rjaege on Dec 14, 2023 8:43:14 GMT -5
Who was it that said: "...the hate will make you strong..."
Some of this on both sides. Typical of contemporary USA in many topics. Divided hating each other won't last forever. Not good a omen, IMO.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 8:45:01 GMT -5
Beautifully put, and said with so much grace. Take notes. I absolutely did and so should you. The world would be a much better place. |
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 14, 2023 9:04:52 GMT -5
I’m curious to know how many (if any), and in what sports, transitioning males (to female) have chosen to continue, or elected to keep playing, boys/mens sports. The debate isn’t that trans athletes are prohibited, legally denied, the right to compete in sports, but whether or not biologically-born males can compete in girls/womens sports. I’m actually surprised there isn’t more discussion about girls/females competing in boys/mens sports. I do believe that females are at a fundamental biological disadvantage, but that disadvantage is not absolute, and is often surpassed, especially on a sport by sport basis. But I do wonder what the debate would look like if the emphasis was on integrating females (biological or transitioned) into male sports, rather than transitioned males into female sports. The only high level transgender men I know of compete in the women’s division. Canada had a transgender man on their women’s soccer team for the Tokyo Olympics. Their name is Quinn. |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 9:40:57 GMT -5
to be fair to everyone involved create divisions specifically for this situation. Create a transgender sport and give it the integrity and importance like every other sport. a voice of reason? Who knew and in this Holiday season! awww. There is a backhanded compliment in there somewhere and I will take it, happy holidays |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 14, 2023 9:56:10 GMT -5
I’m curious to know how many (if any), and in what sports, transitioning males (to female) have chosen to continue, or elected to keep playing, boys/mens sports. The debate isn’t that trans athletes are prohibited, legally denied, the right to compete in sports, but whether or not biologically-born males can compete in girls/womens sports. I’m actually surprised there isn’t more discussion about girls/females competing in boys/mens sports. I do believe that females are at a fundamental biological disadvantage, but that disadvantage is not absolute, and is often surpassed, especially on a sport by sport basis. But I do wonder what the debate would look like if the emphasis was on integrating females (biological or transitioned) into male sports, rather than transitioned males into female sports. The only high level transgender men I know of compete in the women’s division. Canada had a transgender man on their women’s soccer team for the Tokyo Olympics. Their name is Quinn. Quinn identifies as transgender and non-binary, not a man. They play in the division they were assigned at birth. |
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Post by WahineFan44 on Dec 14, 2023 10:07:49 GMT -5
Regardless the article is clearly transphobic and disgusting  Yeah I always truly knew I didn’t like you. I have yet to block anyone on this site. Congrats on being my first |
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 14, 2023 10:22:38 GMT -5
The only high level transgender men I know of compete in the women’s division. Canada had a transgender man on their women’s soccer team for the Tokyo Olympics. Their name is Quinn. Quinn identifies as transgender and non-binary, not a man. They play in the division they were assigned at birth. Good player. |
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Post by coy on Dec 14, 2023 10:23:36 GMT -5
Haha who is this writer?
"They've been deliberately concealing his identity!"
But also, "They made a documentary on him being trans back in 2016, and went to the NY Times on his story!"
But also, "Way back when he was dominating 14s as a 12 year old everyone knew he was a boy!"
But also, "Nobody knew their children were playing against a boy until just recently!"
WTF even is this? What a dumbass writer. I hope he (since we're just calling people whatever pronouns we want, so I'll choose to call this writer a dude because why the hell not?) stops writing articles and does some self reflection.
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Post by 808empath on Dec 14, 2023 10:32:23 GMT -5
You’re a sick sack of sh!t Not me. I don't take kids to drag shows or pride parades. Nothing wrong with taking kids to pride parades. I took my cousin and my 11yr old niece to Honolulu Pride this year and they absolutely loved it. My niece told me she would love to go to next years parade. 🏳️🌈 |
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Post by HappyVolley on Dec 14, 2023 10:52:10 GMT -5
Not me. I don't take kids to drag shows or pride parades. Nothing wrong with taking kids to pride parades. I took my cousin and my 11yr old niece to Honolulu Pride this year and they absolutely loved it. My niece told me she would love to go to next years parade. 🏳️🌈 Yeah, gotta groom them while they're young, right? Sexualizing children is horrifying. You should be in prison. |
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Post by HappyVolley on Dec 14, 2023 10:54:04 GMT -5
The only high level transgender men I know of compete in the women’s division. Canada had a transgender man on their women’s soccer team for the Tokyo Olympics. Their name is Quinn. Quinn identifies as transgender and non-binary, not a man. They play in the division they were assigned at birth. They? Are you talking about multiple players? |
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 14, 2023 11:02:38 GMT -5
Not me. I don't take kids to drag shows or pride parades. Nothing wrong with taking kids to pride parades. I took my cousin and my 11yr old niece to Honolulu Pride this year and they absolutely loved it. My niece told me she would love to go to next years parade. 🏳️🌈 Ya my friend and I took her 8 year old daughter to Denver pride and left when 2 men were drunk having sex right next to us in the park. Maybe they could do a kid friendly day and then a non kid friendly day but what I saw was 100% not appropriate for kids. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 11:08:13 GMT -5
I have actually read the entire thread. It actually wasn't a bad discussion until Holiday got involved. Oh well. On most issues I consider myself progressive or liberal leaning, I have typically been opposed to those born as male competing in divisions intended only for females. Lia Thomas swimming 3 years as a male, then switching to female and winning her event in NCAA's, was egregious imo. Worse is transgender females competing in MMA, where possibility of serious injury is so high. In my sport of disc golf, we have had an issue this past year with a transgender woman in professional disc golf, who can throw farther than her female counterparts. It has caused a lot of damage in the sport. I feel being born male gives an advantage in most sports. I'm no scientist, but it would seem that the earlier you transition, the less advantage you would have. I could be wrong. After reading the story, my strongest feeling was of sympathy for Tate. She obviously did not transition to gain some advantage. I can only imagine the hate-storm she will now have to deal with. I feel so badly for her. The article was shameful, so disrespectful. Although, as I have stated, that I am typically against those born as males competing as females, I try to keep an open mind, and am aware of the possibility that I could be wrong, and could be on the wrong side of history. In the case of Tate, I will be STRONGLY rooting for her success. Her mother made that video when Tate was 9 years old. So did she transition at 8? 7? I find myself having trouble standing in the way of someone who has identified as female from such a young age. I'm sure I have a lot to learn on this issue. But I really hope that Tate weathers the storm and comes out okay, ready to focus on volleyball. If Washington ever plays at Stanford while Tate is playing, I will be sure to give her the loudest ovation I have ever given anyone! Who are you kidding? I came in on page 5 and before that it was just a bunch of screaming activist calling people transphobic . You call that a meaningful discussion? Where you and I can agree ? I also feel for Tate. I think any of us that have faced that ugly kind of Prejudice know how difficult it is. I can also feel for her parents and know how painful that is for them to be in the middle of controversy as well. But I don’t think most who are opposed to this are transphobic at all. I think they would totally support a division In high school and college sports for trans athletes. You are such a brainwashed red clown you think there are just tons of trans athletes and enough to play in their own high school division? |
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