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Post by staticb on Dec 17, 2023 14:21:43 GMT -5
Accepting trans athletes isn’t destroying women’s or men’s sports and no one is advocating to an end of men’s and women’s sports. They just want everyone to be included. If everyone is included - does this mean trans women who have not transitioned would be eligible to compete in women's sports? You know the answer to this. It depends on the sport and the level.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 17, 2023 14:22:42 GMT -5
If everyone is included - does this mean trans women who have not transitioned would be eligible to compete in women's sports? You know the answer to this. It depends on the sport and the level. I probably should have worded that differently and said “should” instead of “would”.
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Post by thevolleybaker on Dec 17, 2023 14:28:36 GMT -5
Accepting trans athletes isn’t destroying women’s or men’s sports and no one is advocating to an end of men’s and women’s sports. They just want everyone to be included. If everyone is included - does this mean trans women who have not transitioned would be eligible to compete in women's sports? I assume you’re creating a scenario where someone not taking HRT or estrogen would compete? I haven’t heard of a case of that but I assume it would be extremely rare if it has happened at all. I mean I go back to my argument about cis athletes also having possible competitive advantages. Also there seems to be this assumption that trans athletes are competing in their transitioned gender to somehow have a leg up on everyone and that’s just not the case. No one would increase their risk of violent attack, murder, or abuse just to MAYBE be better at sports.
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Post by OHVBKING on Dec 17, 2023 14:29:35 GMT -5
I could careless when someone starts transitioning, it really doesn't matter. What matters is male born humans have no business playing in female athletics. I think this is going to become a very hot topic the next election cycle and contributes to Trump winning the election. This is an argument the democrats cannot win. Like him or not, Trump is on the right side of this debate and will get my vote just for that reason alone. I will be laughing at all the transgender supporters as they start squirming because they know Trump is going to shut this idiotic thought process down. And I know Trump scares heck out of the those on the other side of the aisle. Let the circus begin.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 17, 2023 14:40:19 GMT -5
If everyone is included - does this mean trans women who have not transitioned would be eligible to compete in women's sports? I assume you’re creating a scenario where someone not taking HRT or estrogen would compete? I haven’t heard of a case of that but I assume it would be extremely rare if it has happened at all. I mean I go back to my argument about cis athletes also having possible competitive advantages. Also there seems to be this assumption that trans athletes are competing in their transitioned gender to somehow have a leg up on everyone and that’s just not the case. No one would increase their risk of violent attack, murder, or abuse just to MAYBE be better at sports. Creating a scenario? Those people exist, whether seeking out opportunities to compete or not. I was just curious what the consensus seemed to be on that, if transition matters or not. I still don’t think its too far fetched to consider.
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Post by thevolleybaker on Dec 17, 2023 14:41:14 GMT -5
I could careless when someone starts transitioning, it really doesn't matter. What matters is male born humans have no business playing in female athletics. I think this is going to become a very hot topic the next election cycle and contributes to Trump winning the election. This is an argument the democrats cannot win. Like him or not, Trump is on the right side of this debate and will get my vote just for that reason alone. I will be laughing at all the transgender supporters as they start squirming because they know Trump is going to shut this idiotic thought process down. And I know Trump scares heck out of the those on the other side of the aisle. Let the circus begin. I think you mean you couldn’t care less, and yes, Trump does scare me because he’s a fascist. That should scare everyone.
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 17, 2023 14:42:53 GMT -5
I assume you’re creating a scenario where someone not taking HRT or estrogen would compete? I haven’t heard of a case of that but I assume it would be extremely rare if it has happened at all. I mean I go back to my argument about cis athletes also having possible competitive advantages. Also there seems to be this assumption that trans athletes are competing in their transitioned gender to somehow have a leg up on everyone and that’s just not the case. No one would increase their risk of violent attack, murder, or abuse just to MAYBE be better at sports. Creating a scenario? Those people exist, whether seeking out opportunities to compete or not. I was just curious what the consensus seemed to be on that, if transition matters or not. I still don’t think its too far fetched to consider. An trans woman who hasn't transitioned is not allowed to compete at the NCAA level.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 17, 2023 14:47:43 GMT -5
Creating a scenario? Those people exist, whether seeking out opportunities to compete or not. I was just curious what the consensus seemed to be on that, if transition matters or not. I still don’t think its too far fetched to consider. An trans woman who hasn't transitioned is not allowed to compete at the NCAA level. I guess that’s why I push back on the inclusivity part that was mentioned by the poster. Why shouldn’t they be able to?
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Post by thevolleybaker on Dec 17, 2023 14:52:30 GMT -5
I assume you’re creating a scenario where someone not taking HRT or estrogen would compete? I haven’t heard of a case of that but I assume it would be extremely rare if it has happened at all. I mean I go back to my argument about cis athletes also having possible competitive advantages. Also there seems to be this assumption that trans athletes are competing in their transitioned gender to somehow have a leg up on everyone and that’s just not the case. No one would increase their risk of violent attack, murder, or abuse just to MAYBE be better at sports. Creating a scenario? Those people exist, whether seeking out opportunities to compete or not. I was just curious what the consensus seemed to be on that, if transition matters or not. I still don’t think its too far fetched to consider. Of course they exist, but I feel like this possibility, if it did happen, is extremely rare and would probably have to be considered on an individual basis depending on the age and level. I would hope they could still compete but perhaps with an older age group if there is a major mismatch as is done for example in youth football. But as you get older, there’s taller and stronger people regardless of gender and you accept that as part of playing sports.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 17, 2023 15:14:06 GMT -5
She’s fighting for the integrity of her sport. Something that all women’s group should be doing. After all we care about women right? Or do we care about politics more than protecting women’s sports? There’s a difference between fighting and fighting dirty, being nasty, being a bully, etc. If she wants wants to be a positive role model for other women to stand up for themselves, I don’t believe she is going about it the right way and can’t respect her views. She bullied? She is speaking for all those girls who tried to speak and got shamed by people like you, the real bullies in this scenario. There are no bigger bullies than activist to try to cram their opinions down peoples throats
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 17, 2023 15:19:07 GMT -5
There’s a difference between fighting and fighting dirty, being nasty, being a bully, etc. If she wants wants to be a positive role model for other women to stand up for themselves, I don’t believe she is going about it the right way and can’t respect her views. She bullied? She is speaking for all those girls who tried to speak and got shamed by people like you, the real bullies in this scenario. There are no bigger bullies than activist to try to cram their opinions down peoples throats Sure, Jan.
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Post by dbro1970 on Dec 17, 2023 15:20:42 GMT -5
It affects it. And there are things it doesn’t affect. For example, Lia Thomas didn’t get shorter. True. But Thomas transitioned in college, correct? The 16-year-old who is the subject of this thread seems to have transitioned in childhood. If this is the case, she never experienced “male puberty” and the associated growth spurt. At 5-11, if anything, she is undersized for a D1 OH. Thomas transitioned after 2 years on the male swim team in college. Male puberty is what creates the unfair advantage for male athletes. Until age 11 or 12, girls and boys perform nearly equally in sports, or girls have a slight advantage. I don't really have a problem with this girl, and I wish her luck.
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Post by dbro1970 on Dec 17, 2023 15:24:27 GMT -5
The entire reason to separate men’s and women’s sports is that the bell curve of strength/speed/size/etc is different between men and women. If you don’t think that matters, then separating the two sexes is discriminatory. I DO think that matters. So the division athletes compete in should be based on the same principle that is the whole reason for separating the sexes to begin with. But you’re doing what I said, acting like trans women competing in women’s sports is men competing in women’s sports therefore destroying that separation. It’s not. They’re women. They’re on HRT and/or taking estrogen. Whatever advantage they MIGHT have is either neutralized by that or no more and probably much less of a factor than other physical advantages other athletes have. Take Michael Phelps. He has MAJOR inherent physical advantages for his sport. No one called to ban him because it was unfair even though he absolutely dominated. Also, just because you MIGHT have a physical advantage does not automatically mean you will be an elite athlete or win a championship. Sometimes it matches up and sometimes it doesn’t, as is the situation for any athlete. Accepting trans athletes isn’t destroying women’s or men’s sports and no one is advocating to an end of men’s and women’s sports. They just want everyone to be included. Hormone therapy doesn't shorten bones, reduce lung capacity, etc. that is brought about by male puberty. The point is not that some men would not be better than elite women, it is that the elite transgender athlete would be well above the elite women due to the advantages related to their once being men and going through male puberty.
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 17, 2023 15:47:22 GMT -5
An trans woman who hasn't transitioned is not allowed to compete at the NCAA level. I guess that’s why I push back on the inclusivity part that was mentioned by the poster. Why shouldn’t they be able to? I don't know. I think the NCAA policy on trans athletes before Thomas was fine and I think the policy changes after Thomas are also fine. I think the new policy is a *bit* of a cop out, but the NCAA is always going to be guided by the member institutions. It's a reasonable solution to a very complex issue. And regarding the membership- the institutions are very sensitive to federal laws, especially ones concerning nondiscrimination. There are currently broad nondiscrimination protections in higher education and when given the choice between protecting competitive balance or complying with federal law, they're going to choose the latter.
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Post by thevolleybaker on Dec 17, 2023 15:48:10 GMT -5
But you’re doing what I said, acting like trans women competing in women’s sports is men competing in women’s sports therefore destroying that separation. It’s not. They’re women. They’re on HRT and/or taking estrogen. Whatever advantage they MIGHT have is either neutralized by that or no more and probably much less of a factor than other physical advantages other athletes have. Take Michael Phelps. He has MAJOR inherent physical advantages for his sport. No one called to ban him because it was unfair even though he absolutely dominated. Also, just because you MIGHT have a physical advantage does not automatically mean you will be an elite athlete or win a championship. Sometimes it matches up and sometimes it doesn’t, as is the situation for any athlete. Accepting trans athletes isn’t destroying women’s or men’s sports and no one is advocating to an end of men’s and women’s sports. They just want everyone to be included. Hormone therapy doesn't shorten bones, reduce lung capacity, etc. that is brought about by male puberty. The point is not that some men would not be better than elite women, it is that the elite transgender athlete would be well above the elite women due to the advantages related to their once being men and going through male puberty. I don’t agree that they would be well above elite women just because they might be taller and might have better lung capacity. They might just simply be better at the sport. They might have an advantage, but there are also cis women that are naturally way taller and have better lung capacity which gives them a major advantage. Should they be excluded too? Michael Phelps had major natural advantages and there was no outrage about it. Lia Thomas, for example, won one event. She placed 5th in another and was second and tenth in two prelims. If she had such a major advantage as an elite transgender athlete, why didn’t she dominate all the events? The event she won she was well short of Katie Ledecky’s record.
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