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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 16:40:12 GMT -5
Creating a scenario? Those people exist, whether seeking out opportunities to compete or not. I was just curious what the consensus seemed to be on that, if transition matters or not. I still don’t think its too far fetched to consider. An trans woman who hasn't transitioned is not allowed to compete at the NCAA level. There seems to be this idea that medical transition is necessary to be trans, which is not true. Someone can socially transition without medical intervention and their transness is no less valid than those who do have other procedures done. There is no such thing as “fully transitioned.” “A trans woman who hasn’t transitioned” is an oxymoron.
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 18, 2023 16:45:10 GMT -5
An trans woman who hasn't transitioned is not allowed to compete at the NCAA level. There seems to be this idea that medical transition is necessary to be trans, which is not true. Someone can socially transition without medical intervention and their transness is no less valid than those who do have other procedures done. There is no such thing as “fully transitioned.” “A trans woman who hasn’t transitioned” is an oxymoron. I meant to say a trans woman who has not medically transitioned. Social transition is not sufficient to meet NCAA guidelines for participation.
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Post by n00b on Dec 18, 2023 16:45:36 GMT -5
The entire reason to separate men’s and women’s sports is that the bell curve of strength/speed/size/etc is different between men and women. If you don’t think that matters, then separating the two sexes is discriminatory. I DO think that matters. So the division athletes compete in should be based on the same principle that is the whole reason for separating the sexes to begin with. Women’s and men’s sports were actually first separated for social reasons, as women weren’t allowed to compete. Within the context of U.S. college sports, Title IX is a measure to protect against social exclusion, not physical exclusion. Meaning it’s not to provide opportunities to people with certain reproductive tracts, but rather to protect against discrimination against all women. Someone like Tate, whose gender identity is perceived to be that of a girl, would face similar social barriers to sports as her cisgender counterparts. So why do we separate men and women now? "Separate but equal" didn't work out very well.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 16:48:54 GMT -5
There are at least 3 sexes because intersex people exist and biological sex is not the same as gender identity. I agree. The occurrence of hermaphroditic infants is extremely rare and could indeed be dealt with by governing bodies. The “changing”of one’s sex via the use of drugs is the issue, particularly biological males competing in women’s sport. The issue has not arisen in men’s sport as the occurrence of biological females wishing to compete in men’s sport has not been a frequent occurrence or effected men’s sport. It is estimated that 1-2 out of 100 people born in the US are intersex but it is actually likely more. Wouldn’t say it is extremely rare.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 16:51:40 GMT -5
There seems to be this idea that medical transition is necessary to be trans, which is not true. Someone can socially transition without medical intervention and their transness is no less valid than those who do have other procedures done. There is no such thing as “fully transitioned.” “A trans woman who hasn’t transitioned” is an oxymoron. I meant to say a trans woman who has not medically transitioned. Social transition is not sufficient to meet NCAA guidelines for participation. Gotcha. There is a lot of stigma and exclusivity that happens in the trans community around the idea of “fully transitioning” so I just advise to be aware of language around that.
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 18, 2023 16:52:55 GMT -5
I meant to say a trans woman who has not medically transitioned. Social transition is not sufficient to meet NCAA guidelines for participation. Gotcha. There is a lot of stigma and exclusivity that happens in the trans community around the idea of “fully transitioning” so I just advise to be aware of language around that. Trying to keep it simple because I didn't want people to take "medically transitioned" to mean surgery.
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Post by uofaGRAD on Dec 18, 2023 16:59:18 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that the "transition" from Gender Identity Disorder to Gender Dysphoria reduced the incidence of suicide? I'm saying that people with documented gender dysphoria are very prone to suicidal ideation before transition - up to 75%. Around 20-30% have engaged in 1 or more suicide attempts, which is a very high rate relative to the population as a whole. After they get transgender affirming care, suicidal ideation drops to ~40% and those attempting suicide drop into the single digit percentages. That's still high, but society is still pretty brutal to transitioning people. The regret rates are almost negligible at 1%. That's over an order of magnitude lower than for most plastic surgery where regret rates are 30% or more. That might be because there is a strong filter placed on who goes through transition, one that we don't apply to plastic surgery. So I'm saying it has nothing to with some ideology or whatever you want to call it. It relates to keeping people alive and happy, which I think is a value shared by the vast majority of people in a society that prizes the individuals right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." this is very plainly and nicely put. statistics matter. lives matter. context matters. love it.
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Post by savannahbadger on Dec 18, 2023 16:59:36 GMT -5
How soon until we get a “Transgender Transfer Portal Tea” thread? If there’s going to be a thread for transgender athlete commitments, then a transgender portal tea thread is the natural progression here, right?
How has this topic gotten to 45 pages without being deleted? What are the mods waiting for?
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 17:00:40 GMT -5
Women’s and men’s sports were actually first separated for social reasons, as women weren’t allowed to compete. Within the context of U.S. college sports, Title IX is a measure to protect against social exclusion, not physical exclusion. Meaning it’s not to provide opportunities to people with certain reproductive tracts, but rather to protect against discrimination against all women. Someone like Tate, whose gender identity is perceived to be that of a girl, would face similar social barriers to sports as her cisgender counterparts. So why do we separate men and women now? "Separate but equal" didn't work out very well. It’s separated now for the same reason it was separated before. Gender segregation was created due to systemic exclusion of women led by the assumption of incomparability.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 17:16:37 GMT -5
I can't believe I have to say that on a board dedicated to women sports full of examples of extraordinarily exceptional athletes. I understand that the male-female divide is useful in organizing sports because it accounts on average for a lot of very real differences, and it applies to most people. But the biological determination of sex is actually quite complex so that divide does not account for nearly all of the differences, and it doesn't apply to everyone. There are people with XX chromosomes that present as male, for instance, in most cases because one X chromosome just happens to have a genetic transposon that carries the hormonal regulatory pathway that converts non differentiated gonads into male ones. Because sex determination involves hormones, environmental context also plays a role in humans. More generally, there are whole groups of organisms where biological sex is determined by temperature during development, where biological sex flips during life history, sometimes based purely on social on context cues, where the genetic mechanisms determining sex vary among related organisms and re-evolve repeatedly among lineages. Thank you for your well thought out response. The only thing I question where the topic of XX and XY are concerned is that you said that the biological sex of groups of organisms can be determined by temperature. While this is true, unless humans happen to be one of those organisms, I’m not sure how relevant that fact is. As for males who are XX, I highly doubt that their physical development is the same as an individual who is XY. If they want to compete with XX, I say “Let ‘em.” they meet the criteria (This of course is the hypothetical criteria that I have in mind) And while gender can be considered a social construct, XX,XY is not. It is biological fact and not a bad basis to categorize people for physical competition. imo Science shows that biological sex/gender is much more complicated than just looking at chromosomes.
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Post by n00b on Dec 18, 2023 17:29:37 GMT -5
So why do we separate men and women now? "Separate but equal" didn't work out very well. It’s separated now for the same reason it was separated before. Gender segregation was created due to systemic exclusion of women led by the assumption of incomparability. So now the correct answer is separate but equal? You don't believe that separate divisions are needed due to physical differences?
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Post by donut on Dec 18, 2023 18:05:54 GMT -5
It’s separated now for the same reason it was separated before. Gender segregation was created due to systemic exclusion of women led by the assumption of incomparability. So now the correct answer is separate but equal? You don't believe that separate divisions are needed due to physical differences? Holy straw man
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Post by n00b on Dec 18, 2023 18:14:12 GMT -5
So now the correct answer is separate but equal? You don't believe that separate divisions are needed due to physical differences? Holy straw man As I've stated before, we have separate divisions because the bell curves of strength/height/etc are biologically different between men and women. Yes, they do overlap, but there's a reason that Top 25 women's volleyball and basketball programs utilize random, non-recruited men who just happen to attend their university as practice players on their team. The argument that we separate divisions today for something other than that seems silly to me. And if you DON'T think that's the reason we separate men's and women's sports, then I don't understand the argument for doing it at all.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 18, 2023 18:32:05 GMT -5
It’s separated now for the same reason it was separated before. Gender segregation was created due to systemic exclusion of women led by the assumption of incomparability. So now the correct answer is separate but equal? You don't believe that separate divisions are needed due to physical differences? Not sure where you read that because I did not say that. Just correcting you on how we got there. It was systemic exclusion first and foremost on the basis of seeing women as weaker and not possessing the physical capabilities of sports.
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Post by n00b on Dec 18, 2023 18:39:19 GMT -5
Physically? They are. It's why the net is 8 inches lower.
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