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Post by MVBFAN on Dec 21, 2023 17:54:36 GMT -5
She's not dominating to the level that everyone is making a big stink about. She's a good California volleyball player, but it's not like she's the best female player in the country. It's a silly argument from the playing side. I don't really think the argument is about domination or skill. It seems in this case it's about a biological male taking a scholarship from a biological female. (At least that was the initial reaction I read, which is now moot as she no longer has the scholarship offer to UW). More so the responses I’ve read through this thread and various articles. I really don’t see the issue, but that’s just me! |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 21, 2023 17:58:16 GMT -5
"Beliefs" by Boof that are immune to being challenged, despite any logic, data, or evidence to do so:
"How can’t people see that if this is allowed to continue the way it is biological women’s sports will be over. It will be overtaken by males pretending to be females."
Despite trans people existing for a very long time and many governing bodies having standing trans policies already in place for years now, we have not seen any leagues overtaken by transgender athletes. There is no reasoning to believe a very small population of the country will overtake an entire league.
"They’re two biological sexes, men and woman."
Intersex people exist.
"Everyone on the planet is one of those two (referring to XX or XY)."
Again, intersex people are alive and well. As well as other chromosomal disorders which do not fit into XX or XY.
"They them is a term for mutiple."
They/them has been used in a singular form since the 14th century and can also be used in a gender neutral sense.
"It’s pretty obvious if all you have to do is identify as a women to have access to women’s lockerooms it will provide a dangerous environment to women cause it will be abused for sexual abuse ect."
"If you open bathrooms and lockerooms up to males just claiming they are women and allowed in it will create an environment that will be completely abused and will be a feeding ground for sexual predators."
There's actually no evidence to suggest this is true and there are many cities and states with trans inclusive policies and none have reported an increase in sexual assaults by individuals pretending to be trans. Also, regardless of policy, people can still abuse transness to cause harm. For example, if a state were to say individuals can only use the bathroom corresponding to their sex assigned at birth, a cisgender man can pretend to be a trans man to enter into a women's locker room/restroom.
Additionally, trans-inclusive policies do not decriminalize sexual assault.
"People are too wrapped up in trying to make things as they think they should be rather then how it really is."
I actually agree on this one some- people are too wrapped up in trying to enforce a gender binary, rather than recognizing that the gender binary hasn't always been present in many cultures and is a pervasive idea that reached the United States through colonialism.
"To me there’s no such thing as a trans person."
But then quoted Caitlin Jenner to highlight the thoughts of trans people.
"For the subject just involving gender identity and pronouns how can’t you see that this isn’t bringing people together. It’s resegregation."
Recognizing differences is not segregation. You suggested a league specifically for trans athletes. That is recognizing differences and then dividing others based on them. That is segregation.
"I support the mental health of any indiduals. But that doesn’t mean I have to believe in this trans , non binary crap. Like I said. I believe they arnt being helped and being encourages to support their delusions"
Completely ignoring the data around mental health of trans folks is not supporting the mental health of anyone. 41% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered suicide in the past year.
The simplest of measures (using correct pronouns/names) can reduce suicide ideation rates by up to 50%. Those supported by their families are 3x less likely to consider or attempt suicide.
That is only touching on the beginning of how gender affirming care is suicide prevention. They are truly being helped to stay alive.
"I'm a dangerous transphobe"
Okay this one was accurate.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 21, 2023 18:04:20 GMT -5
Again, sex is not as simple as XX or XY and there have been many cases that highlight that. For those who believe there are only two biological sexes and/or genders, where would an intersex athlete like Caster Semenya fit in? Difficult to find a way to make things "fair" in cases like hers. She went through puberty and is XY, giving her an advantage over XX competitors that cannot be overcome by nutrition and/or training. I believe that the policy in place forces her to lower her testosterone if she wants to compete in the women's category. She was allowed to compete because she got her HORMONES to the necessary level. Her CHROMOSOMES remain the same, yet do not carry the same advantage with lowered levels of testosterone. That is to say, sports are not simply divided by XX and XY and can't be. |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 21, 2023 18:05:17 GMT -5
She's not dominating to the level that everyone is making a big stink about. She's a good California volleyball player, but it's not like she's the best female player in the country. It's a silly argument from the playing side. I don't really think the argument is about domination or skill. It seems in this case it's about a biological male taking a scholarship from a biological female. (At least that was the initial reaction I read, which is now moot as she no longer has the scholarship offer to UW). "How can’t people see that if this is allowed to continue the way it is biological women’s sports will be over. It will be overtaken by males pretending to be females." There's been many arguments made about domination. |
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Post by VB48 on Dec 21, 2023 18:12:55 GMT -5
Difficult to find a way to make things "fair" in cases like hers. She went through puberty and is XY, giving her an advantage over XX competitors that cannot be overcome by nutrition and/or training. I believe that the policy in place forces her to lower her testosterone if she wants to compete in the women's category. She was allowed to compete because she got her HORMONES to the necessary level. Her CHROMOSOMES remain the same, yet do not carry the same advantage with lowered levels of testosterone. That is to say, sports are not simply divided by XX and XY and can't be. Just looked up the rule, and she has to reduce her natural testosterone to below 5nmol/L in order to compete in the women's category |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 21, 2023 18:16:52 GMT -5
She was allowed to compete because she got her HORMONES to the necessary level. Her CHROMOSOMES remain the same, yet do not carry the same advantage with lowered levels of testosterone. That is to say, sports are not simply divided by XX and XY and can't be. Just looked up the rule, and she has to reduce her natural testosterone to below 5nmol/L in order to compete in the women's category Which is something an athlete like Tate or other trans athletes are able to do as well. |
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Post by babybacksets on Dec 21, 2023 18:23:36 GMT -5
She's not dominating to the level that everyone is making a big stink about. She's a good California volleyball player, but it's not like she's the best female player in the country. It's a silly argument from the playing side. I don't really think the argument is about domination or skill. It seems in this case it's about a biological male taking a scholarship from a biological female. (At least that was the initial reaction I read, which is now moot as she no longer has the scholarship offer to UW). Wait, did they recently pull it? That is so f**ked up… |
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Post by donut on Dec 21, 2023 18:27:47 GMT -5
All three of your sentences have attempted to simplify YOUR view of the issue by using false generalizations from the other perspective. Yes they are people who are stronger than others but it matters when it comes to biological sexes.Why? |
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Post by badgerbreath on Dec 21, 2023 18:31:45 GMT -5
She's not dominating to the level that everyone is making a big stink about. She's a good California volleyball player, but it's not like she's the best female player in the country. It's a silly argument from the playing side. I don't really think the argument is about domination or skill. It seems in this case it's about a biological male taking a scholarship from a biological female. (At least that was the initial reaction I read, which is now moot as she no longer has the scholarship offer to UW). This is basically arguing that she can't have a scholarship of any sort as a trans person though. Hormone therapy takes her out of the running as a male, and as a trans female she can't participate either? |
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Post by VB48 on Dec 21, 2023 18:36:23 GMT -5
Just looked up the rule, and she has to reduce her natural testosterone to below 5nmol/L in order to compete in the women's category Which is something an athlete like Tate or other trans athletes are able to do as well. I was unaware prior to looking that up, but all 3 on the podium for the women's 800 at the Rio Olympics in 2016 were intersex |
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 21, 2023 18:37:52 GMT -5
Again, sex is not as simple as XX or XY and there have been many cases that highlight that. For those who believe there are only two biological sexes and/or genders, where would an intersex athlete like Caster Semenya fit in? Difficult to find a way to make things "fair" in cases like hers. She went through puberty and is XY, giving her an advantage over XX competitors that cannot be overcome by nutrition and/or training. I believe that the policy in place forces her to lower her testosterone if she wants to compete in the women's category. What’s your proof she went through puberty as boy before starting hormone therapy? |
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Post by n00b on Dec 21, 2023 18:38:08 GMT -5
I don't really think the argument is about domination or skill. It seems in this case it's about a biological male taking a scholarship from a biological female. (At least that was the initial reaction I read, which is now moot as she no longer has the scholarship offer to UW). This is basically arguing that she can't have a scholarship of any sort as a trans person though. Hormone therapy takes her out of the running as a male, and as a trans female she can't participate either? Isn't this what happens with trans men as well? Or do they usually prioritize their ability to play sports over medically transitioning? |
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Post by HappyVolley on Dec 21, 2023 18:40:35 GMT -5
I'm sure you are aware that sex and gender were once synonymous.; This is completely backward. "Gender" meant "kind" or "type" or "grouping" and was not much used except by linguists. "Sex" (as a noun) meant male/female/other. (And yes, the concept of non-binary sex is ancient.) It was mainly feminist scholars in the 60s and 70s who started using "gender" as a concept for things that had previously been subsumed by the word "sex". They wanted to separate out the cultural aspects of what it meant to be female from the physical aspects. This annoyed many linguists, who felt that their word had been co-opted, except being linguists they knew that happens to words, so they kind of had to just lump it. That's absurd. "Sex" may have been used more frequently to distinguish between male/female, but gender was used in the same manner. If the concept of non-binary is ancient, can you refer me to some ancient texts in which "non-binary sex" is used? Thanks for confirming my earlier statement about the corruption of the language as a frequent tactic by radicals to advance their agendas. However, it began before the feminists of the 60s and 70s began burning their bras. You can Google Madson Bentley and John Money for further reference. |
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Post by redbeard2008 on Dec 21, 2023 18:44:59 GMT -5
I mean, this is kind of the whole point. She's not dominating to the level that everyone is making a big stink about. She's a good California volleyball player, but it's not like she's the best female player in the country. It's a silly argument from the playing side. If taken to its logical conclusion, it would destroy women's sports, in my opinion. That's the whole point. |
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Post by babybacksets on Dec 21, 2023 18:45:10 GMT -5
This is completely backward. "Gender" meant "kind" or "type" or "grouping" and was not much used except by linguists. "Sex" (as a noun) meant male/female/other. (And yes, the concept of non-binary sex is ancient.) It was mainly feminist scholars in the 60s and 70s who started using "gender" as a concept for things that had previously been subsumed by the word "sex". They wanted to separate out the cultural aspects of what it meant to be female from the physical aspects. This annoyed many linguists, who felt that their word had been co-opted, except being linguists they knew that happens to words, so they kind of had to just lump it. That's absurd. "Sex" may have been used more frequently to distinguish between male/female, but gender was used in the same manner. If the concept of non-binary is ancient, can you refer me to some ancient texts in which "non-binary sex" is used? Thanks for confirming my earlier statement about the corruption of the language as a frequent tactic by radicals to advance their agendas. However, it began before the feminists of the 60s and 70s began burning their bras. You can Google Madson Bentley and John Money for further reference. Can you shut tf up and go celebrate your pickup of Jurevicius? JFC why do you have so much energy to put into being an awful human being? |
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