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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 25, 2024 16:48:18 GMT -5
Maybe if we had left things along - Russia doesn't invade and we avoid a war? Hell no. Putin was going to invade no matter what. |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 25, 2024 17:02:57 GMT -5
Maybe if we had left things along - Russia doesn't invade and we avoid a war? Hell no. Putin was going to invade no matter what. He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. |
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Jun 25, 2024 17:05:03 GMT -5
Hell no. Putin was going to invade no matter what. He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Hahahaha. |
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Post by jsquare on Jun 25, 2024 17:13:57 GMT -5
Hell no. Putin was going to invade no matter what. He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? |
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 25, 2024 17:30:03 GMT -5
He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? Omg, Hol will run from that one. Is he going to call Vlad for proof?😂 ✝️ |
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Post by aardvark on Jun 25, 2024 18:00:01 GMT -5
Ukraine made moves toward joining NATO for years, intensifying them in the early 2000s. By 2008 NATO and Ukraine were in talks that were intended to lead to Ukraine joining the alliance. However, in 2010, under Russian-favoring Viktor Yanukovych, they changed policy and announced they would not join NATO. In 2014 he was overthrown in the Maidan Revolution. Ukraine did not formally change their "we will remain neutral" stance, though. Then Russia invaded. That revived the official interest in joining NATO. June 2021 - NATO leaders brought up the idea (again) of Ukraine joining NATO. In response - Russia has a massive military buildup at the border. NATO general secretary responds by saying that Ukraine's decision to join NATO is up to Ukraine and NATO members. Russia invades Ukraine within two months - and we are 2+ years and counting of a war. I am not saying that NATO talk necessarily led to Russia invading Ukraine, but it is a question worth asking. Maybe if we had left things along - Russia doesn't invade and we avoid a war? I guess it depends on how you do the counting. Russia was obviously of a mind to annex eastern Ukraine. It's why they supported Donetsk and Luhansk "independence". After Russia had the big invasion, they annexed those two and two other Oblast, giving them that land bridge to Crimea that Putin coveted. He wanted the land connection to go all the way to Moldova, so he could carve off Transnistria from them too. Fortunately for Ukraine, Russia's military didn't live up to the glory Putin envisioned. But that shouldn't distract you from realizing that despite all the Russian losses, they are slowly wearing down Ukraine, which is much smaller and can't afford to trade blows with their much larger opponent. Any talk that Putin would not have invaded if Ukraine hadn't tried to join NATO is wildly foolish. It fails to understand Putin's desires, or the Ukrainian intelligence service seeing the Russian maneuvers and understanding the meaning. Ukrainian leadership knew they couldn't go toe to toe with Russia, so they tried to jump into NATO's arms to avoid getting wiped out. What other options did they have? Russia knew what they were doing, and sped up their plan to get the war going before a decision could be made, knowing that an active war would discourage NATO members from accepting Ukraine in. So now we have a proxy war instead. Better that than to have Russia succeed. Only failure will stop them, and their successful expansion would injure us. Supporting Ukraine with money is actually the least painful option for us, given present circumstances. |
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Post by joetrinsey on Jun 25, 2024 18:08:18 GMT -5
One could say Russia doesn't invade Ukraine if there wasn't talk of adding Ukraine to NATO. One can say anything one likes, but that doesn't mean one is correct. I think it’s been pretty well-established that Russia has, for a long time, viewed NATO expansion to Ukraine as a near-existential threat. wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html |
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Post by aardvark on Jun 25, 2024 18:44:11 GMT -5
We are psychotic, so you should let us do whatever we want.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 25, 2024 18:49:42 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO.
The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014.
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 25, 2024 18:58:29 GMT -5
He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? Anything from cult boy regarding this? |
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Post by joetrinsey on Jun 25, 2024 19:27:04 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. And might have there been a precipitating major event in 2014 that happened in Ukraine prior to that in 2014? |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 25, 2024 19:42:08 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. Joe project absolute weakness. Every world leader looks at him and doesn’t take him seriously. Because he caves in when anyone puts any pressure on him. |
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 25, 2024 19:45:59 GMT -5
He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? Still no proof from Holidumb and Vlad? He seemed so confident. ✝️ |
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Post by blue-footedbooby on Jun 25, 2024 20:03:40 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. Joe project absolute weakness. Every world leader looks at him and doesn’t take him seriously. Because he caves in when anyone puts any pressure on him. Trump would have given Putin a free pass you idiot. |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 25, 2024 20:53:33 GMT -5
Joe project absolute weakness. Every world leader looks at him and doesn’t take him seriously. Because he caves in when anyone puts any pressure on him. Trump would have given Putin a free pass you idiot. sure |
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