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Post by volleyguy on Jun 25, 2024 20:55:32 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. Joe project absolute weakness. Every world leader looks at him and doesn’t take him seriously. Because he caves in when anyone puts any pressure on him. Hoo boy, the EU really caved on sanctions on Russia, didn’t they.
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 25, 2024 20:58:55 GMT -5
He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? Any proof from Holidumb?
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Post by jsquare on Jun 25, 2024 21:37:30 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. Joe project absolute weakness. Every world leader looks at him and doesn’t take him seriously. Because he caves in when anyone puts any pressure on him. It's just so easy to prove how wrong you always are. Most Europeans and Latin Americans have little confidence in the U.S. president to do the right thing regarding world affairs. This includes only 13% of adults in Germany and 8% in Mexico. www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/08/how-people-around-the-world-see-the-u-s-and-donald-trump-in-10-charts/
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Post by blue-footedbooby on Jun 25, 2024 22:03:24 GMT -5
Trump would have given Putin a free pass you idiot. sure What do you know psychopath, you think it's funny that a guy got blugenoed by a hammer to the head. But for the sane folk out there, given Trump's love affair with Putin and his disdaine for Ukraine, there will be no doubt about it after Vance gets chosen as his VP mate.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 26, 2024 1:17:01 GMT -5
What do you know psychopath, you think it's funny that a guy got blugenoed by a hammer to the head. But for the sane folk out there, given Trump's love affair with Putin and his disdaine for Ukraine, there will be no doubt about it after Vance gets chosen as his VP mate. you don’t think there’s some irony that a guy gets bludgeoned with a hammer when his wife has promoted and easy on crime mentality?
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 26, 2024 4:37:32 GMT -5
He would’ve never tried it under Donald Trump. Why? Any response yet from Holidumb?
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Post by jsquare on Jun 26, 2024 5:06:49 GMT -5
What do you know psychopath, you think it's funny that a guy got blugenoed by a hammer to the head. But for the sane folk out there, given Trump's love affair with Putin and his disdaine for Ukraine, there will be no doubt about it after Vance gets chosen as his VP mate. you don’t think there’s some irony that a guy gets bludgeoned with a hammer when his wife has promoted and easy on crime mentality? You don’t have sympathy for some 80 plus year old man bludgeoned by a hammer just because of who they are married to? What does that say about you as a person?
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Post by aardvark on Jun 26, 2024 5:10:24 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. And might have there been a precipitating major event in 2014 that happened in Ukraine prior to that in 2014? Read Wikipedia's "Russian occupation of Crimea". Note how Russian special forces units were already in place with fake uniforms, posing as Crimean militia, and had a carefully coordinated attack on Ukrainian military installations there, as well as taking over the local government. This effort had been years in the making. It was extensively planned. The "precipitating major event" you speak of, AKA the Revolution of Dignity, only triggered the seizure of Crimea in the sense that it served as cover for doing what they planned to do all along.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 26, 2024 5:21:19 GMT -5
you don’t think there’s some irony that a guy gets bludgeoned with a hammer when his wife has promoted and easy on crime mentality? You don’t have sympathy for some 80 plus year old man bludgeoned by a hammer just because of who they are married to? What does that say about you as a person? I take this as a point in my favor about our debate as to how smart Holiday is. He now realizes he goofed in belittling Paul Pelosi, and that it makes him look like an unfeeling jerk. Even worse, the other side caught on to his mistake and are proceeding to "hammer" him for it. He's smart enough to see this and do some damage control. However, part of his motif is that he's never wrong so he can't just admit he screwed up. Instead, he tries to redirect attention to Nancy with the accusation that she was soft on crime. If this fails to stick, he will come up with something else. Devising this "escape plan" was an intelligent move, that he had to do on his own without "coaching" from Hannity. Sadly, although I see plenty of signs of intelligence in him, I'm struggling to find much in the way of true morality there.
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 26, 2024 6:35:01 GMT -5
You don’t have sympathy for some 80 plus year old man bludgeoned by a hammer just because of who they are married to? What does that say about you as a person? I take this as a point in my favor about our debate as to how smart Holiday is. He now realizes he goofed in belittling Paul Pelosi, and that it makes him look like an unfeeling jerk. Even worse, the other side caught on to his mistake and are proceeding to "hammer" him for it. He's smart enough to see this and do some damage control. However, part of his motif is that he's never wrong so he can't just admit he screwed up. Instead, he tries to redirect attention to Nancy with the accusation that she was soft on crime. If this fails to stick, he will come up with something else. Devising this "escape plan" was an intelligent move, that he had to do on his own without "coaching" from Hannity. Sadly, although I see plenty of signs of intelligence in him, I'm struggling to find much in the way of true morality there. Not much intelligence at all from our board Orange cultist. Then there’s his comprehension problem. ✝️
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Post by blue-footedbooby on Jun 26, 2024 6:39:29 GMT -5
What do you know psychopath, you think it's funny that a guy got blugenoed by a hammer to the head. But for the sane folk out there, given Trump's love affair with Putin and his disdaine for Ukraine, there will be no doubt about it after Vance gets chosen as his VP mate. you don’t think there’s some irony that a guy gets bludgeoned with a hammer when his wife has promoted and easy on crime mentality? We get it Hools, you support crime when it involves hammer bludgening psychopaths, cop beating protestors and classified nuclear doc thefts. I suppose writing letters to Charles Manson in prison is a hobby of yours as well. Meanwhile them damn dems are soft on crime.
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bluepenquin
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Posts: 12,903
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 26, 2024 7:41:37 GMT -5
The question was whether Russia would have invaded if Ukraine had not started approaching NATO, and the answer is very clearly that they *did* invade (in 2014) when Ukraine had an official stance that they were *not* going to join NATO. The thing Joe quoted was from 2008, and clearly Ukraine declaring they had no further plans to join NATO (which happened in 2010) did not stop the Russians from invading in 2014. Putin is a bad guy - so it is very plausible or likely that he was invading regardless. I can also see having a NATO neighbor right on their doorstep is probably viewed rather negatively to Russia (It would be like Mexico joining the Warsaw Pact (or more likely Cuba)) - 35-40 years ago. The Soviet Union putting missiles in Cuba almost triggered a world war. I am just asking the question - did the West provoke Russia in any way by continued talking of Ukraine joining NATO? To me, this is certainly plausible. Russia could live with a neutral buffer of Ukraine right next to them - but having them join NATO is likely be viewed as a serious provocation to them. BTW, whether we help Ukraine now regardless of what may have been mistakes in the past is irrelevant. We need to stop Russia from advancing into Ukraine, but I also believe that 'NATO' probably had a huge impact in this war starting - and this could have possibly been prevented.
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Post by blue-footedbooby on Jun 26, 2024 7:51:47 GMT -5
Didn't Sweden and Finland offer the same NATO threat as Ukraine? Putin never invaded them. There had to be an ulterior motive.
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Post by blue-footedbooby on Jun 26, 2024 8:33:16 GMT -5
Yep, but only after how many more indictments, impeachments, riots, dictator love letters and everthing else that he'll make us all suffer through.
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Post by bobinmd on Jun 26, 2024 8:54:13 GMT -5
Yep, but only after how many more indictments, impeachments, riots, dictator love letters and everthing else that he'll make us all suffer through. I wasn’t on the board then but I’m thinking H wrote that “Trump will probably get a second term” thing in 2020 too. He can just keep cutting and pasting that for all future Orange presidential runs. What will H do when they come for him? ✝️
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