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Post by donneyp on Apr 12, 2007 23:18:07 GMT -5
"And I'm sorry. I have a hard time working up a lot of moral indignation about this. The idiots had strippers performing in their frat. Give me a break. Did they deserve to have their lives "ruined"? No. Are they "innocent"? Hardly." - Ruffda
Ruffda, I hate to call you out on two threads in a week, but it has to be said. It doesn't take an entire lacrosse team to hire a stripper. It takes one guy with a cell phone. And it wasn't a frat, just a house (don't drag the greeks into this too! ) So if you are a player on this team, and you show up at a party to find a stripper there, what do you do? LEAVE...and one of them did, as evidenced by the ATM records. But he still got kicked out of school, spent a load of money, and a year of his life knowing that he could face serious jail time and a lifetime labled as a sex offender.
"I am pretty sure they have done enough in their time in Durham to warrant punishment." - Phadrus
What exactly warrants THIS? Because they skipped a couple classes? Put a late hit on the freshman in practice? Didn't call the girl the morning after? Let underage players drink their alcohol? Lets go as far as to say one of them flirted with a nerd to get her to help with a paper, or even cheat on the paper! Would all of that deserve THIS?
These young men have had their life changed forever. They are being punished for the sins of an entire generation of athletes that led everyone to ASSUME they were guilty from the word go. This wasn't Lawrence Phillips, Todd Bergan, Maurice Clarett, or the Baylor Basketball player that killed his teammate. They committed crimes. These boys were being dumb college kids, partying, and thinking about naked women, like a million other college boys were doing that same night. Some got lucky. Some got drunk. These poor saps lost some very bright futures.
If anyone here REALLY thinks they deserved what they got, you are welcomed to make your case but I'm going to agree to disagree. At the same time, I think this is a very useful case for coaches to reference...or for anyone to reference when talking to young people. You don't have to do something illegal to get in trouble. Being stupid can get you into just as much trouble.
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Post by Gorf on Apr 13, 2007 0:58:09 GMT -5
What exactly warrants THIS? Because they skipped a couple classes? Put a late hit on the freshman in practice? Didn't call the girl the morning after? Let underage players drink their alcohol? Lets go as far as to say one of them flirted with a nerd to get her to help with a paper, or even cheat on the paper! Would all of that deserve THIS? These young men have had their life changed forever. They are being punished for the sins of an entire generation of athletes that led everyone to ASSUME they were guilty from the word go. This wasn't Lawrence Phillips, Todd Bergan, Maurice Clarett, or the Baylor Basketball player that killed his teammate. They committed crimes. These boys were being dumb college kids, partying, and thinking about naked women, like a million other college boys were doing that same night. Some got lucky. Some got drunk. These poor saps lost some very bright futures. If anyone here REALLY thinks they deserved what they got, you are welcomed to make your case but I'm going to agree to disagree. At the same time, I think this is a very useful case for coaches to reference...or for anyone to reference when talking to young people. You don't have to do something illegal to get in trouble. Being stupid can get you into just as much trouble. I don't think the players deserved to have had rape allegations brought against them, however, I do think their actions earned them the cancellation of their soccer season and the resignation of their coach. Their coach was warned long before the case with the stripper happened that the team was under scrutiny because of past actions / behavior patterns. One of the players sent the ridiculous email that he'd like to hire more strippers and kill them. One of the 3 accused players (Seligman sp?) is still facing charges on his assault case in DC (Georgetown). There was known underage drinking at the house in question. Parents taking a blind eye to under age drinking in their homes have in recent months / years been sent to prison for years as a result. The of age players at the party in question taking a blind eye to their under age teammates drinking at the party face no such charges - which seems like a double standard. The team had already been in trouble with the Duke athletic director as well as others even higher within the Duke administration. You'd think by knowing they were being scrutinized by the Duke administrators that they'd know better (and hopefully had been advised against by their coach) than to continue doing the same / similar / worse things than what had resulted in their facing scrutiny for at least the 2006 season in the first place. These weren't just "innocent college kids doing what college kids do" after they'd been warned about being under scrutiny and told to stop the antics that were already getting them into trouble at Duke.
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Post by woody on Apr 13, 2007 0:59:38 GMT -5
Chance... one of the great quotes I've ever heard on the subject, "The problem is they don't want to "end" racism, they want to 'win' racism." Yeah, the issue is more valuable than the solution. donneyp... another great commentary. What does this have to do with volleyball? As the ultimate team sport the essence of volleyball is trust and leadership. The Duke LC team had failed leadership. And I've got to ask an Imus type question. How is it young college athletes have to hire strippers anyway? Can't they get dates? Volleyball players don't have that problem. Here's an emoticon.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2007 7:38:41 GMT -5
Absolutely! It happens every day. What do you think those award winning rappers are saying? Let's not confuse they way things ought to be with the way they are. Rappers are not calling the Rutgers team members "nappy-headed hos". And that's where your logic escapes me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2007 7:42:02 GMT -5
Sorry donnyp. I'm still not going to lose sleep about those creeps. Were they wronged? Yes. Are they still jerks? I have no doubt.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Apr 13, 2007 8:56:29 GMT -5
What exactly warrants THIS? Because they skipped a couple classes? Put a late hit on the freshman in practice? Didn't call the girl the morning after? Let underage players drink their alcohol? Lets go as far as to say one of them flirted with a nerd to get her to help with a paper, or even cheat on the paper! Would all of that deserve THIS? These young men have had their life changed forever. They are being punished for the sins of an entire generation of athletes that led everyone to ASSUME they were guilty from the word go. This wasn't Lawrence Phillips, Todd Bergan, Maurice Clarett, or the Baylor Basketball player that killed his teammate. They committed crimes. These boys were being dumb college kids, partying, and thinking about naked women, like a million other college boys were doing that same night. Some got lucky. Some got drunk. These poor saps lost some very bright futures. If anyone here REALLY thinks they deserved what they got, you are welcomed to make your case but I'm going to agree to disagree. At the same time, I think this is a very useful case for coaches to reference...or for anyone to reference when talking to young people. You don't have to do something illegal to get in trouble. Being stupid can get you into just as much trouble. I don't think the players deserved to have had rape allegations brought against them, however, I do think their actions earned them the cancellation of their soccer season and the resignation of their coach. Their coach was warned long before the case with the stripper happened that the team was under scrutiny because of past actions / behavior patterns. One of the players sent the ridiculous email that he'd like to hire more strippers and kill them. One of the 3 accused players (Seligman sp?) is still facing charges on his assault case in DC (Georgetown). There was known underage drinking at the house in question. Parents taking a blind eye to under age drinking in their homes have in recent months / years been sent to prison for years as a result. The of age players at the party in question taking a blind eye to their under age teammates drinking at the party face no such charges - which seems like a double standard. The team had already been in trouble with the Duke athletic director as well as others even higher within the Duke administration. You'd think by knowing they were being scrutinized by the Duke administrators that they'd know better (and hopefully had been advised against by their coach) than to continue doing the same / similar / worse things than what had resulted in their facing scrutiny for at least the 2006 season in the first place. These weren't just "innocent college kids doing what college kids do" after they'd been warned about being under scrutiny and told to stop the antics that were already getting them into trouble at Duke. They certainly didn't sound like innocent college kids to me, but they also clearly weren't criminals in the charges brought against them by the District Attorney. They appear to be in that nebulous group between the two extremes -- the spoiled overstimulated scholarship athlete who has unconsciously learned from a lifetime of pampering that exceptional skill and a high Win-Loss record cover a multitude of sins. And what many people on this board would like is for volleyball to become a "big time" sport -- which would inevitably lead to situations similar to this. They probably like to think of themselves as champions of a woefully unappreciated sport, but I like to think of them as short-sighted idiots. Of course, personally I'd like to see athletics divorced from college entirely and turned into a vocational club system similar to the rest of the world. The NCAA is a destructive presence in the world of education and should be demoted to an organizer of regional intramural competition.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Apr 13, 2007 9:05:49 GMT -5
Absolutely! It happens every day. What do you think those award winning rappers are saying? Let's not confuse they way things ought to be with the way they are. Rappers are not calling the Rutgers team members "nappy-headed hos". Not quite true. In much of modern rap parlance, any female is either a "ho" or a "bitch" or a "trick". They are reduced to being little more than ambulatory boobs and butt. Women have no standing in pop rap other than what they gain by trading their sexual favors to a high-status gangsta. But the status remains with the man, and if he ever "kicks her to the curb", she becomes just another ho. Racism is a pervasive organization of a society that systematically denies opportunities and liberties to certain members of the society based on their race. This incident was not an example of racism, and those using the emotional charge of that word to increase their media visibility are ego-ridden sophists of the worst kind.
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Post by AntennaMagnet on Apr 13, 2007 9:45:35 GMT -5
It may be that the Duke Lacrosse coach did not work hard enough to temper the nasty boys and preserve institutional integrity, but then again, maybe the Duke president didn't work hard enough either. I'm still in favor of Dukes President Brodhead resigning...he is as culpable as the coach and the Board of Trustees should have more backbone.
I would also point out that University of Illinois basketball athletes recently were caught stealing other students electronic equipment and neither they nor the coach were ousted. So, the quick take is that revenue sports have a different code of conduct than the non - revenue sports, and one can only imagine what would have happened if the rape allegations at Duke were wrongfully made against Duke basketball players.
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Post by 1wvb on Apr 13, 2007 9:48:09 GMT -5
WOW--A lot of strong opinions from all over the country.
It boils down to this for me.
1. We live in a world where no matter who you are, where you are--your color matters and always will. People look at it first and give their impressions based off of it. We do it in VOLLEYBALL--black kid can jump/white kid has good ball control--Dont you dare say you dont say it either. You would be lying to yourself and to this board and community of fans.
2. Coach Carter said it best until we stop using the word, you cant expect them to stop using the word. All of this outrage over words that are used on a daily basis in the worlds our kids are growing up in. Watch MTV, BET, VH1--Listen to IPOD, XM, Sirius. Every other word is a something that we all know that if stopped saying, the world would be a better place.
3. The LAX players were being college kids. Should they be punished for being the kids that got caught? Should they be punished for being kids who go to a big school?
I will not say I agree with what they were doing. I will not say I believe the coach was at fault. I will not say the school did what it had to do. Our job as educators is to teach these young people to make proper choices. The problem is a proper choice in my community is not the proper choice in a Northeast community of financial wealth or a free willing community in California or a beach community in Florida or a small town in the midwest. The values are different. Right from wrong are different. It is ok to say this in this community and do this in this community but it is not here where I am at.
4. The circle we have created through our government and laws is embarassing. There is no justice for anything anymore.
You could go on about this half of it forever. The judicial system or lack there of--the news and their swaying of public perception and its lack of full coverage--the police and the profiling all around, not just one section of population--the perception we have of each race and the fact no race is stepping up to help correct the perception it has in public; instead griping about the wrongs of their existence instead of fighting for the rights of their existence--asking for apologies from the many years of the plights of their people without aksing forgiveness for the plights they have created for this generation due to the unwillingess to confront current issues--and so on.
Volleyball is the ultimate team sport in my mind but we have our issues and you can look at most qualifiers and find it. We are creating a sport that is cutting out some of the best athletes and if we dont remedy it soon we will become Lacrosse--a sport for the haves and unaffordable for the have nots--my point based on the fact that it is predominantly played by the upper class/financially well off people and is not popular nationally because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2007 10:08:27 GMT -5
Rappers are not calling the Rutgers team members "nappy-headed hos". Not quite true. In much of modern rap parlance, any female is either a "ho" or a "bitch" or a "trick". They are reduced to being little more than ambulatory boobs and butt. Women have no standing in pop rap other than what they gain by trading their sexual favors to a high-status gangsta. But the status remains with the man, and if he ever "kicks her to the curb", she becomes just another ho. Am I wrong in seeing a distinction here? It just seems to me that _singling out_ these players is worse. Worse, mind you. I am in no way defending the rapping segment which views all women as "ambulatory boobs and butt". I'm not even defending the segment that views them as stationary boobs and butt. Speaking of which, this is another reason I call the Duke players "creeps". I just find no way to defend anyone who brings strippers to their "frat" -- and, yes, I use that term loosely, perhaps figuratively.
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Post by Chance on Apr 13, 2007 13:23:33 GMT -5
Volleyball is the ultimate team sport in my mind but we have our issues and you can look at most qualifiers and find it. We are creating a sport that is cutting out some of the best athletes and if we dont remedy it soon we will become Lacrosse--asport for the haves and unaffordable for the have nots. Lacrosse is way way more open to "the have nots" than volleyball is. For the most part, playing college volleyball requires that you play multiple years of club volleyball, which IIRC can cost 1,000s of dollars a season. To play college lacrosse, you just need to play on your high school team, which is free. You do have to purchase equipment, which can be somewhat expensive. Depending on how much you go for used gear, It will cost 100-400 dollars. That being said, if you are the kind of gifted athlete with a chance to play in college, coaches will often help supply you with equipment. Many teams also do fundraisers to help all of the players pay for equipment.
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Post by ugopher on Apr 13, 2007 15:18:50 GMT -5
We just had a similar situation in MN. A woman accused 3 U of MN football players of rape. They were arrested and placed in jail where they spent the weekend and suspended from teh team. They were released after 3 days in jail when and charges were not brought due to insufficient evidence. The arrests made big news in town and there was something in the paper each day while they were in jail. When they were released there wasn't near the news coverage when that happened.
I know we are quick to jump on the media but it is frustrating to see how quickly news such as this is pushed to the front but when the charges don't bear out it is pushed to the middle of broadcast or inside the paper.
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Post by UCSBVball on Apr 13, 2007 16:17:46 GMT -5
donneyp - good post 1wvb - good post
Young men and women let loose in college. These kids (young men) are no different at any college. Young and stupid - lets not make youth a crime.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2007 17:54:45 GMT -5
Nor should we simply condone the behavior. Students should not have strippers in their residences. Student athletes should be held to an even higher standard.
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Post by IdahoBoy on Apr 13, 2007 19:04:38 GMT -5
Nor should we simply condone the behavior. Students should not have strippers in their residences. Student athletes should be held to an even higher standard. What if students are strippers to pay for being students?
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