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Post by austintatious on Oct 16, 2011 15:33:10 GMT -5
The comments above regarding yellow/red cards for excessive time outs and coming back from locker room on time differ from individual sanctions for behavior. They are Delay Warnings and Delay Penalty and are charged to the team not an individual.
If a team does not have their lineup in by 30 seconds it is a Delay Warning (yellow and at the 0 mark if still not in or team not available to play a Delay Penalty (Red-and pt for opponent) is issued. Every 30 seconds after that another point is awarded until team is present to play.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2011 15:53:40 GMT -5
I heard a couple of red cards were issued in an Ohio U match this year, when the other team didn't come out for g3 in time.
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 16:03:00 GMT -5
That's why a yellow card IS a serious warning, and is used as the LAST warning to shut up, not the first warning to shut up. Unlike this rare occasion where the winning side in a lopsided 17-9 game receives a yellow card, yellow cards are usually given when coaches are in an intense game where even the slightest close call by a ref could potentially throw the game for one side or another. In such a situation, it can be understandable for a coach to fight for his team and want to argue till he's blue in the face because he knows just how important that point was; so the ref giving him a yellow card is the LAST warning to shut up, because the very next warning will be a red card penalty that may very well likely cause his team to lose that game without even getting to play another point. Please do not referee any match I am involved in and if I am working the match do not be assigned to me as a partner until you learn the soft skills of officiating. What do you mean by soft skills of officiating? I've already said I would allow a coach to vent as much as needed with verbal and hand signal warnings first before resorting to a yellow card. How much "softer" would you like? You want to baby a coach who continues to argue even after receiving a yellow card??
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Post by abugslife on Oct 16, 2011 16:12:18 GMT -5
Please do not referee any match I am involved in and if I am working the match do not be assigned to me as a partner until you learn the soft skills of officiating. What do you mean by soft skills of officiating? I've already said I would allow a coach to vent as much as needed with verbal and hand signal warnings first before resorting to a yellow card. How much "softer" would you like? You want to baby a coach who continues to argue even after receiving a yellow card?? But you don't allow them to vent with hand signs or verbal signs. After the first two or so times a down ref will start to see that the coach isnt going to stop so that is where the "coach I understand your frustration but this is how we are calling the game and if you chose to continue you will receive a yellow card because what you are complaining about are judgement calls." letting them rant as much as they need will open pandora's box because you have allowed them to do what they want. You gotta stop it before it gets crazy and after that warning if they continue then you will have to card them. But I think what austintanous means is practice officiating vs reactive officiating which is what you would be doing.
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 16:25:16 GMT -5
What do you mean by soft skills of officiating? I've already said I would allow a coach to vent as much as needed with verbal and hand signal warnings first before resorting to a yellow card. How much "softer" would you like? You want to baby a coach who continues to argue even after receiving a yellow card?? But you don't allow them to vent with hand signs or verbal signs. After the first two or so times a down ref will start to see that the coach isnt going to stop so that is where the "coach I understand your frustration but this is how we are calling the game and if you chose to continue you will receive a yellow card because what you are complaining about are judgement calls." letting them rant as much as they need will open pandora's box because you have allowed them to do what they want. You gotta stop it before it gets crazy and after that warning if they continue then you will have to card them. But I think what austintanous means is practice officiating vs reactive officiating which is what you would be doing. If as a ref, you don't understand coaches and players can get very upset and angry during intense situations, and you don't allow them to vent their frustration first to let out some steam before giving them their first verbal warning signal, and instead you try to cut them off early in hopes of avoiding them getting even more upset, you will only succeed in frustrating them and producing pent up anger that will actually more likely lead to an eventual red card, not less likely.
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Post by bkedane on Oct 16, 2011 16:38:37 GMT -5
ChipNdink -- are these your theories about how yellow cards are used? or how they should be used? or what? Are you a USA or PAVO official? A trainer of officials? Or are you offering a fan or coaches perspective on how you think things should work. I'm not attempting to figure out anyone's identity. I'm just trying to understand what sort of claims you're making about the use of cards.
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Post by Wiswell on Oct 16, 2011 16:42:49 GMT -5
After watching the last two Badger games, and then reading this thread, I thought to myself - can I imagine Coach Waite getting a yellow card? Answer - nope. I think I saw him change emotions about 2 times all the years I watched.
At what point can a coach get thrown out of the match?
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 17:03:03 GMT -5
I have coached high school and club ball, and have reffed club and amateur tournaments for over 20 years. I have attended many coaching and reffing clinics, but never bothered to get USA or PAVO certification, since I'm not interested in reffing "professionally". It's my philosophy of how I use yellow cards when I'm reffing. That they should be used sparingly, only as a LAST resort, AFTER giving the coach or player fair verbal or hand signal warnings beforehand; and not as a FIRST warning merely just to tell someone to shut up. In over twenty years of reffing, I have had to resort to using an eventual red card only twice. Once due to profanity and verbal abuse from a coach, and once when players on opposing teams nearly came to fisticuffs. I have never had to expel anyone. Many times, coaches who were angry and upset at me during a match, would come up to me later after the match, shake my hand and apologize for their behavior and thank me for reffing a fair and unbiased match--even that coach I gave a red card too.
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 17:11:13 GMT -5
After watching the last two Badger games, and then reading this thread, I thought to myself - can I imagine Coach Waite getting a yellow card? Answer - nope. I think I saw him change emotions about 2 times all the years I watched. At what point can a coach get thrown out of the match? First warning yellow, second warning red and point penalty, third warning is automatic expulsion. The only time I remember a coach being expelled was for verbally abusing his own players. The down ref already warned him many times, and the up ref eventually had enough of his yelling at his own team and kicked him out, forcing the assistant coach to take over, who was much nicer to his players.
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Post by jgrout on Oct 16, 2011 17:16:46 GMT -5
What's the use of a yellow card "retaining it's serious nature" if there is no consequence? By using a yellow card to more often replace a verbal warning, then it actually has teeth because once the coach gets his or her first yellow, their conduct should improve. For example, if you give a coach x number of verbal warnings, they will continue to behave the same. But if you instead give them one verbal warning and replace your 2nd verbal with a yellow card, they risk continuing their same behavior. Years ago at Maples, vociferous protest by Arizona's Dave Rubio got him a yellow card, and, when he didn't slow down, a red card. That stopped his protests. I've never seen another red card in twenty years of watching college WVB.
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Post by abugslife on Oct 16, 2011 17:51:39 GMT -5
But you don't allow them to vent with hand signs or verbal signs. After the first two or so times a down ref will start to see that the coach isnt going to stop so that is where the "coach I understand your frustration but this is how we are calling the game and if you chose to continue you will receive a yellow card because what you are complaining about are judgement calls." letting them rant as much as they need will open pandora's box because you have allowed them to do what they want. You gotta stop it before it gets crazy and after that warning if they continue then you will have to card them. But I think what austintanous means is practice officiating vs reactive officiating which is what you would be doing. If as a ref, you don't understand coaches and players can get very upset and angry during intense situations, and you don't allow them to vent their frustration first to let out some steam before giving them their first verbal warning signal, and instead you try to cut them off early in hopes of avoiding them getting even more upset, you will only succeed in frustrating them and producing pent up anger that will actually more likely lead to an eventual red card, not less likely. Yes players and coaches can get very upset and angry but you can't keep letting them vent their frustration over and over again to let off steam. You especially don't let players do it, no way. I will let a player have one time to complain, their job is to play. It isn't about cutting them off early it is about the expectations of a match and that complaining about judgement calls isn't going to fly. Many times the red card comes out because a ref let the coach vent way too much and they then think they can vent every time they think there is double or a lift. Once you show a coach there is a line they will toe it.
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Post by austintatious on Oct 16, 2011 18:02:58 GMT -5
ChipnDink, the way you respond defensively to counter arguments and your adamant position combined with the fact that you officiate yet never took the time to go through a certification process tells me all I need to know.
How much do you work with a partner? Other than a jr player or rec player? Working hand in hand on facilitating a match and working WITH the benches (notice I didn't say control the bench/coaches) and having a strong R2 who will intercede and not allow the cross court dialogue between coaches/R1s is why you seldom see red cards any more.
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 19:57:47 GMT -5
ChipnDink, the way you respond defensively to counter arguments and your adamant position combined with the fact that you officiate yet never took the time to go through a certification process tells me all I need to know. How much do you work with a partner? Other than a jr player or rec player? Working hand in hand on facilitating a match and working WITH the benches (notice I didn't say control the bench/coaches) and having a strong R2 who will intercede and not allow the cross court dialogue between coaches/R1s is why you seldom see red cards any more. I didn't want to get certified, because I didn't want to be a "professional" ref. The pay sucks for the amount of travel and time that's required. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and others who do choose to be professional refs. It's a thankless job for sure. If what you meant by "soft skills of officiating" is better communication between you and the R2, and between the R2 and the coaches, then more power to you; but if you meant "soft skills of officiating" to mean how you would apply yellow cards differently under different match situations--then you would one of the refs I would complain about as a coach. I would demand the same behavior level required to get a yellow card at 17-9 as I would at 23-23.
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Post by username on Oct 16, 2011 20:07:11 GMT -5
C&D's obsession with the strange topic of yellow cards is borderline creepy-weird..
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Post by chipNdink on Oct 16, 2011 20:28:57 GMT -5
C&D's obsession with the strange topic of yellow cards is borderline creepy-weird.. No one's forcing you to read this thread, so stop stalking--you're the one that's borderline creepy.
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