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Post by #skoskers on Jan 21, 2015 21:26:44 GMT -5
No way Italy's #2, 3, 4, 5, 6... are better than their Turkish counterparts! NOT even close, man! Micha's Congeliano team is ranked 5th in the league, and it's not because there's parity of top talent in the Italian league either. Congeliano is at the same place that Bryn Kehoe's Sagres (Swiss) team was in the year she arrived. Also, not even Italy's top national team players stayed in Italy this season! Lo Bianco (Fener), Centoni (Galatasaray), Costagrande (Vakif) and both Bosettis are in Turkey; del Core is still in Russia; and Arrighetti plays for Loko Baku in Azerbaijan. The Italian league has had a couple years of notoriety of not paying its players' salaries, which has made the league suffer. I know you appreciate int'l volleyball as much as I do, c4ndle, so are you sure you're not confusing the Italian men's pro league with the women's this year? The men's league has top talent and is on par with the Russians. However, the women's league is definitely on par with France and Switzerland, but way behind Turkey, Russia, Brazil... And Turkey's best player from the WChamps (Neriman) is playing in Italy. Top 3, sure Turkey is miles ahead (though VakifBank did need 5 sets to get by Piacenza today). After that? No way. The 5th place Turkish team is being led by Sonja Newcombe and Judith Pietersen. You think Conegliano's roster (with Neriman, Nikolova, Barcellini, Adams, Barazza, Glass) couldn't handle that? You need to educate yourself on the level of French and Swiss volleyball if you want to compare the 5th place Swiss team to the 5th place Serie A team. Congeliano (which is 9-5) without Glass would be a toss up with Idman Ocagi. Neither team has a significant advantage. However, the Turkish 6th place team (Galatasaray with Bosetti, Centoni, Meijners and Kilic) could dismantle Italy's #5-12. Even Bursa (#8 in Turkey) features Milos of Croatia and Peña and Rivera of the DR). Really, c4ndle, you couldn't be more wrong about Turkey. Also, women's "Serie A1" doesn't have the prestige in 2015 that it did a few years ago. It's equitable with the Swiss and French leagues this year in terms of talent. Saying otherwise is just being ignorant of the financial woes of Serie A1, which, again, is why the top Italian players don't even play in Italy and chose in Turkey instead.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jan 21, 2015 21:39:13 GMT -5
And Turkey's best player from the WChamps (Neriman) is playing in Italy. Top 3, sure Turkey is miles ahead (though VakifBank did need 5 sets to get by Piacenza today). After that? No way. The 5th place Turkish team is being led by Sonja Newcombe and Judith Pietersen. You think Conegliano's roster (with Neriman, Nikolova, Barcellini, Adams, Barazza, Glass) couldn't handle that? You need to educate yourself on the level of French and Swiss volleyball if you want to compare the 5th place Swiss team to the 5th place Serie A team. Congeliano (which is 9-5) without Glass would be a toss up with Idman Ocagi. Neither team has a significant advantage. However, the Turkish 6th place team (Galatasaray with Bosetti, Centoni, Meijners and Kilic) could dismantle Italy's #5-12. Even Bursa (#8 in Turkey) features Milos of Croatia and Peña and Rivera of the DR). Really, c4ndle, you couldn't be more wrong about Turkey. Also, women's "Serie A1" doesn't have the prestige in 2015 that it did a few years ago. It's equitable with the Swiss and French leagues this year in terms of talent. Saying otherwise is just being ignorant of the financial woes of Serie A1, which, again, is why the top Italian players don't even play in Italy and chose in Turkey instead. Kilic doesn't play for Gala, she dropped that name and went back to Russia. Gala is struggling (they lost to Tauron, which is an entirely mediocre Polish team, last week) because there's not a player on that roster who can pass. They're not dismantling anybody. I strongly disagree about Idman Ocagi. And Bursa is not a strong team. Prisilla Rivera is good if old, but their Turkish players are mediocre to terrible. It's great they can afford 2 above-average foreigners, but there's not enough depth of talent of Turkish players for the Turkish league to field a number of strong teams with their foreigner restrictions. Please post rosters of Swiss teams beyond Volero who you think could finish top 10 in Italy. I'm genuinely curious what you're seeing there. Financial woes aside, there's still way more money in the Serie A than in the NLA. There's still a ton of talent in Italy (incl. very solid Italian players - about half of their WCH roster is still there) and it's a deep league. Not having a CL title-contender doesn't mean it's on the level of Switzerland.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 21, 2015 21:51:21 GMT -5
Congeliano (which is 9-5) without Glass would be a toss up with Idman Ocagi. Neither team has a significant advantage. However, the Turkish 6th place team (Galatasaray with Bosetti, Centoni, Meijners and Kilic) could dismantle Italy's #5-12. Even Bursa (#8 in Turkey) features Milos of Croatia and Peña and Rivera of the DR). Really, c4ndle, you couldn't be more wrong about Turkey. Also, women's "Serie A1" doesn't have the prestige in 2015 that it did a few years ago. It's equitable with the Swiss and French leagues this year in terms of talent. Saying otherwise is just being ignorant of the financial woes of Serie A1, which, again, is why the top Italian players don't even play in Italy and chose in Turkey instead. Kilic doesn't play for Gala, she dropped that name and went back to Russia. Gala is struggling (they lost to Tauron, which is an entirely mediocre Polish team, last week) because there's not a player on that roster who can pass. They're not dismantling anybody. I strongly disagree about Idman Ocagi. And Bursa is not a strong team. Prisilla Rivera is good if old, but their Turkish players are mediocre to terrible. It's great they can afford 2 above-average foreigners, but there's not enough depth of talent of Turkish players for the Turkish league to field a number of strong teams with their foreigner restrictions. Please post rosters of Swiss teams beyond Volero who you think could finish top 10 in Italy. I'm genuinely curious what you're seeing there. Financial woes aside, there's still way more money in the Serie A than in the NLA. There's still a ton of talent in Italy (incl. very solid Italian players - about half of their WCH roster is still there) and it's a deep league. Not having a CL title-contender doesn't mean it's on the level of Switzerland. The Italian players you speak of were B Team players; their A Team plays in Turkey. The burden of proof doesn't rest on who's in the Swiss league as it does on who's in the Italian league? This convo is reminiscent of last fall's PAC vs. B1G debates. Obviously Turkish and Italian clubs need to play each other directly to prove either of our points. From top to bottom, though, Turkey is much more competitive and stronger in talent than Italy.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jan 21, 2015 21:59:22 GMT -5
Kilic doesn't play for Gala, she dropped that name and went back to Russia. Gala is struggling (they lost to Tauron, which is an entirely mediocre Polish team, last week) because there's not a player on that roster who can pass. They're not dismantling anybody. I strongly disagree about Idman Ocagi. And Bursa is not a strong team. Prisilla Rivera is good if old, but their Turkish players are mediocre to terrible. It's great they can afford 2 above-average foreigners, but there's not enough depth of talent of Turkish players for the Turkish league to field a number of strong teams with their foreigner restrictions. Please post rosters of Swiss teams beyond Volero who you think could finish top 10 in Italy. I'm genuinely curious what you're seeing there. Financial woes aside, there's still way more money in the Serie A than in the NLA. There's still a ton of talent in Italy (incl. very solid Italian players - about half of their WCH roster is still there) and it's a deep league. Not having a CL title-contender doesn't mean it's on the level of Switzerland. The Italian players you speak of were B Team players; their A Team plays in Turkey. The burden of proof doesn't rest on who's in the Swiss league as it does on who's in the Italian league? This convo is reminiscent of last fall's PAC vs. B1G debates. Obviously Turkish and Italian clubs need to play each other directly to prove either of our points. From top to bottom, though, Turkey is much more competitive and stronger in talent than Italy. No, it's not. At the top, Turkey is stronger in talent, and by a significant margin. At the midlevel and bottom, Italy is stronger overall. It's pretty clear. And a Turkish and Italian team did play today. Watch it on Laola; it doesn't confirm your argument. And the burden IS on you when you say the Swiss league is equal to the Italian. Here is where the 2nd place Swiss team and the 3rd place team (best player: Kat Luft) got knocked out of the CEV Cup by those powerhouses from Romania and Slovenia.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 21, 2015 23:05:20 GMT -5
Today's match on Laola featured Vakifbank (Turkey) beating Piacenza (Italy). The game was close but Vakif spanked Piacenza in sets 3 and 4. IMO the top 7 Turkish teams make a better league than, at most, three Italian teams that could compete with the top 10 Turk clubs.
Also I never claimed that Switzerland had the best talent. I said they are equitable to Italy, which has mediocre talent because of budgetary constraints. Both Italy and Switzerland are decent leagues, but not at Turkey's level competitively.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 21, 2015 23:31:10 GMT -5
I really wanna see Micha get Congeliano to the top and make the league and her hitters better. Micha's placement improved every year under Rose, proving success to his trend of developing OHs into world-class setters. Give her a year and a half to develop and I like her and "big boy" Micah's chances for Rio.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 1:13:32 GMT -5
The top 3 teams in the Turkish league are heads and tails better than anyone in the Italian league. Hell, those three club teams could make a case for being the strongest in the world. IMO, that alone means the Turkish league is stronger than the Italian. Three teams I believe are enough to warrant calling an entire league better than another. However, I agree with c4ndlelight. The rest of the Turkish league is lackluster. If the most notable name (in my opinion) is Rivera, that's a hard case to make. There are multiple players in Italy who I would place above her.
Also, I would be hesitant claiming Micha would be ready for Rio after half of an international game. The only reason players like Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker (who are all AT LEAST of Hancock quality) started in the first Olympics after college is because they graduated in 2008 or 2009. Larson, Foluke and Harmotto started on the National Team as early as 2009. Simply because of Micha's graduation date, she doesn't have that luxury and I don't see her in Rio.
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ltfan
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Post by ltfan on Jan 22, 2015 3:32:37 GMT -5
Taliking Italian and Turkish leagues are two different things.
First of all, drop in level of Italian league is due to lack of money. However Italian league is way more competitive than Turkish. Top 3 Turkish teams are really strong world-wide because they have the best Turkish players. Only Neriman is playing in Italy, and Seda in Turkey. Others are playing in Vakif, Fener and Eczacibasi... Gala has some good youngsters. When Turkish teams play lower ranked teams, it isn't a beautiful game to watch, pretty boring because there is a huge gap between top 3 and rest of the teams..
In Italy any team could beat any. There really are a few weak teams such as Urbino, but they managed to take 2 sets from Conegliano. So this is mostly due to good local players who make the teams stronger and having some good foreigners. Maybe they don't have the BIGGEST of stars but they do play good. Novara beat Russian star studded team Krasnodar (Kosheleva, Garay, Fabiola, Sokolova-Shashkova, Calderon, Pasynkova) in CEV cup. And I am pretty sure if they play CL they would do much better than Busto or Piacenza. Piacenza took Turkish champion Vakif to 5 sets and they lost 21-19.. And they are ranked 4th in the league. So I don't think comparing the leagues there is that big of a diference.. Turkey for sure has better foreigners but lacks local players and due to that only top 3-4 teams are pretty strong.
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Post by midnightblue on Jan 22, 2015 5:41:46 GMT -5
Also, I would be hesitant claiming Micha would be ready for Rio after half of an international game. The only reason players like Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker (who are all AT LEAST of Hancock quality) started in the first Olympics after college is because they graduated in 2008 or 2009. Larson, Foluke and Harmotto started on the National Team as early as 2009. Simply because of Micha's graduation date, she doesn't have that luxury and I don't see her in Rio. 5 Olympians are AT LEAST of Hancock's quality? So in turn Micha Hancock, who has been playing professional volleyball for 10 minutes, is now on par with Jordan Larson, Foluke Akinradewo, Destinee Hooker, Christa Harmotto, and Megan Hodge? Also Foluke has been with the NT since 2007. She played in the 2008 WGP weeks before the Beijing Games for which she was an alternate.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 22, 2015 11:24:40 GMT -5
Also, I would be hesitant claiming Micha would be ready for Rio after half of an international game. The only reason players like Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker (who are all AT LEAST of Hancock quality) started in the first Olympics after college is because they graduated in 2008 or 2009. Larson, Foluke and Harmotto started on the National Team as early as 2009. Simply because of Micha's graduation date, she doesn't have that luxury and I don't see her in Rio. 5 Olympians are AT LEAST of Hancock's quality? So in turn Micha Hancock, who has been playing professional volleyball for 10 minutes, is now on par with Jordan Larson, Foluke Akinradewo, Destinee Hooker, Christa Harmotto, and Megan Hodge? Also Foluke has been with the NT since 2007. She played in the 2008 WGP weeks before the Beijing Games for which she was an alternate. I'm not trying to put any words in Duncaroo’s mouth, but I understood his comment as saying Hancock graduated with just as many accolades and accomplishments as Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker. Dunc later went on to say that Micha doesn’t have 3 years to train with the NT to prepare her for Rio. I think that’s a fair assessment, but I hope Micha proves him wrong and gets on the roster à la Harmotto in 2012 at the last minute.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 22, 2015 12:19:02 GMT -5
5 Olympians are AT LEAST of Hancock's quality? So in turn Micha Hancock, who has been playing professional volleyball for 10 minutes, is now on par with Jordan Larson, Foluke Akinradewo, Destinee Hooker, Christa Harmotto, and Megan Hodge? Also Foluke has been with the NT since 2007. She played in the 2008 WGP weeks before the Beijing Games for which she was an alternate. I'm not trying to put any words in Duncaroo’s mouth, but I understood his comment as saying Hancock graduated with just as many accolades and accomplishments as Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker. Dunc later went on to say that Micha doesn’t have 3 years to train with the NT to prepare her for Rio. I think that’s a fair assessment, but I hope Micha proves him wrong and gets on the roster à la Harmotto in 2012 at the last minute. I''ll say this, the second setter roster spot for RIO is wide open. CT, if she is in the lead is because she has experience, is a solid player and great teammate. I think she is great, but is that a great criteria/resume for a spot on the Olympic team? I would like to think someone could bring more to the table. I say this as someone who really respects CT.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 22, 2015 12:37:53 GMT -5
I'm not trying to put any words in Duncaroo’s mouth, but I understood his comment as saying Hancock graduated with just as many accolades and accomplishments as Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker. Dunc later went on to say that Micha doesn’t have 3 years to train with the NT to prepare her for Rio. I think that’s a fair assessment, but I hope Micha proves him wrong and gets on the roster à la Harmotto in 2012 at the last minute. I''ll say this, the second setter roster spot for RIO is wide open. CT, if she is in the lead is because she has experience, is a solid player and great teammate. I think she is great, but is that a great criteria/resume for a spot on the Olympic team? I would like to think someone could bring more to the table. I say this as someone who really respects CT. I'll also add that Courtney did a decent job against Turkey and the DR in London when Berg was injured, but I'd like to think that a taller setter with a better serve, block, and attack could enhance the team's chemistry, provide leadership, and most importantly put the ball up in those desirable locations for her hitters. Similar to Courtney and her playing time in London, Hancock is, as the Parisians say, " C'était un mal pour un bien," to have the opportunity to start for Congeliano in place of an injured Glass.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 14:31:02 GMT -5
5 Olympians are AT LEAST of Hancock's quality? So in turn Micha Hancock, who has been playing professional volleyball for 10 minutes, is now on par with Jordan Larson, Foluke Akinradewo, Destinee Hooker, Christa Harmotto, and Megan Hodge? Also Foluke has been with the NT since 2007. She played in the 2008 WGP weeks before the Beijing Games for which she was an alternate. I'm not trying to put any words in Duncaroo’s mouth, but I understood his comment as saying Hancock graduated with just as many accolades and accomplishments as Larson, Foluke, Harmotto, Hodge and Hooker. Dunc later went on to say that Micha doesn’t have 3 years to train with the NT to prepare her for Rio. I think that’s a fair assessment, but I hope Micha proves him wrong and gets on the roster à la Harmotto in 2012 at the last minute. Exactly. Sorry that was't clear. I think the rest of my comment makes it clear that I agree: half of an international game is not enough to warrant claiming Micha is ready for Rio.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 22, 2015 14:34:37 GMT -5
Kilic doesn't play for Gala, she dropped that name and went back to Russia. Gala is struggling (they lost to Tauron, which is an entirely mediocre Polish team, last week) because there's not a player on that roster who can pass. Kilic is still in Turkey; why did you think she went to Russia? IIRC, Kilic has never played in the Russian league.
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Post by midnightblue on Jan 22, 2015 14:43:00 GMT -5
Kilic doesn't play for Gala, she dropped that name and went back to Russia. Gala is struggling (they lost to Tauron, which is an entirely mediocre Polish team, last week) because there's not a player on that roster who can pass. Kilic is still in Turkey; why did you think she went to Russia? IIRC, Kilic has never played in the Russian league. C4ndle thinks you're talking about Lioubov Sokolova(-Shashkova-Kilic). She married a Turkish volleyball player a number of years ago, Aytac Kilic, she is since divorced and has dropped that name. She played for Fener.. but now is back in Russia playing for Dynamo Krasnodar.
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