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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 14:08:32 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch?
It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.<
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 2, 2015 14:11:34 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< who said he kicked "them" off, or they won't try to get a player back?
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 14:18:06 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< who said he kicked "them" off, or they won't try to get a player back? Because the sweeping opinion on here is that they left voluntarily...? Crap, on my phone, otherwise I'd employ the sarcastic, eye-rolling emoticon.
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Post by VolleyTX on Feb 2, 2015 14:28:04 GMT -5
While you are made up of individuals, being a great team sometimes means surrendering the things you want to do, or adapting behaviors for the good of the group. It does take a strong coach to manage mulitple personalities, and get them to function in an efficient capacity. But it also takes players willing to adjust, recognizing what the group needs, adapt to how they relate etc....... I am not saying this is what Tom needs to do, or did or didnt do, but all players in teams in general male or female. I remember a conversation I had with a GREAT player who was an all-american who didnt find it necessary to go to team functions, bond with players off the court etc...... The conversation was, "even if you don't see the value of that, or the importance of that, if the group does, than sometimes you have to do some things you arent crazy about, for the good of the group". That or ski, golf or play tennis! Being on a team means surrendering the things you want to do, or feel like you need to do, for what is in the best interest of the group. Having said that, the group also has to recognize that they have to put up with the shortcomings, or individual personality types also in the best interest of the group. It is very difficult to develop great teams, and its very difficult at times to be a great teammate. Legendary soccer coach Anson Dorrance years ago developed a really disciplined warm-up routine where as soon as players showed up to practice, they were in a very detailed regiment of individualized stretching and skill work. He noticed morale wasnt very good after implementing, and asked his players why? Their response was, "when we stretch casually as a group at the beginning of practice, its a time where we get to catch up with each other about our day, families, boyfriends........" While Dorrance found that to be ridiculous, he scrapped what he thought best in the best interest of what the kids wanted because it put them in the best position to be successful. It wasnt about what he wanted, what he was most comfortable with, it was about finding a way for the group to perform best. In this case it was him adapting and surrendering what he wanted to do. I couldn't agree more. Again though, in the case of female team dynamics, I think that, more often than not, the "women who compete like men" are most often the ones treated like problems, or told they are the ones that are different and must conform, or are unfairly criticized (in my opinion). They're in love with a team sport but are wired to compete differently than the majority of their teammates. That's incredibly difficult. Changing who you are as a competitor? That's an incredibly request to ask of a professional athlete. I agree that it takes a lot to develop a great team, and I consider having a great, experienced coach to be the cornerstone of that endeavor. Unfortunately, in this case of Team USA and Tom, I do not feel that Team USA has a coach with experienced managing the team dynamics of professional female competitors, and that is a problem when the best players in the world are being excluded because of an inability, related to inexperience and social weaknesses, to manage their inclusion. I also don't think that Tom doesn't have changes to make. I just don't think that her competitive nature is one of them. Just to add a few more thought..... in regards to the one "outsider" being the one forced to adapt: Here at work, we sometimes use a tool called E colors (http://www.equilibria.com/ecolors.html) to ground a new team. Everyone takes the assessment, then the team has an all day session full of fun exercises that really helps illustrate just how different each of us is. I recently took a 1 week class so that I can facilitate these one day sessions. I was shocked to find how similarly I think and communicate like the other green/blues in the class. It was also painfully obvious how different I was from say a Yellow/Red. There is never any talk of "good" verses "bad". It becomes quiet clear what our "limiters" (perceived weaknesses) are.... and how those limiters could be interpreted from other e color combinations. I say all this to say that these kinds of exercises and open the mind of the participants.... it helps you understand where your co-workers/team mates are coming from without taking their style or demeanor personally. There was a member of my team (Yellow/red) that used to drive me nuts. I hated being in meetings with him. After I took the class, I have a whole new attitude toward him, and I really respect what he has to contribute. I think the tool would be PERFECT for sports teams. I doubt that any of them use it... or something else like it, but I really think it could make a huge difference in getting your team to bond.... not just on their similarities, but on their differences.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 2, 2015 15:01:30 GMT -5
who said he kicked "them" off, or they won't try to get a player back? Because the sweeping opinion on here is that they left voluntarily...? Crap, on my phone, otherwise I'd employ the sarcastic, eye-rolling emoticon. Newsflash, the sweeping opinion on volleytalk is not a great barometer of the truth. No question in Tom's case it was a situation of both parties recognizing its time to move on. There is ZERO truth to the fact Hooker was kicked off for good. That isnt a sweeping opinion of volleytalkers, that would be the actual truth whether or not you choose to believe that. Eye roll all you like, but that doesnt change the facts. I never suggested there wasnt dissatisfaction from the coaches standpoint, but dismissed from team wouldnt exactly be the most accurate way to put it either.
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Post by volleyguy on Feb 2, 2015 15:34:26 GMT -5
I agree that the sweeping opinon on volleytalk isn't a good barometer of the truth. However, the only persons in a position to say with some degree of certainty what happened and what was said in their private discussions are the individual players and the coach. Statements made subsequently in public or private, for a variety of reasons, may or may not be completely accurate reflections of the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 15:46:18 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< I think you mean "inexperienced head volleyball coach with experience as an assistant coach who also happens to be one of the best volleyball players of all time." I agree there is a difference between being a coach and a player, but 1) he was with USA for the London cycle as an assistant coach and 2) you make him sound like some dude they pulled off the street. Also this "inexperienced volleyball coach" just won the World Cup, something the US has NEVER done. Even the almighty Hooker couldn't do that. Gamova, Fofao and Hooker are all also very different athletes. The relationships between them and their coaches and their teammates are all also very different.
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 16:04:13 GMT -5
Because the sweeping opinion on here is that they left voluntarily...? Crap, on my phone, otherwise I'd employ the sarcastic, eye-rolling emoticon. Newsflash, the sweeping opinion on volleytalk is not a great barometer of the truth. No question in Tom's case it was a situation of both parties recognizing its time to move on. There is ZERO truth to the fact Hooker was kicked off for good. That isnt a sweeping opinion of volleytalkers, that would be the actual truth whether or not you choose to believe that. Eye roll all you like, but that doesnt change the facts. I never suggested there wasnt dissatisfaction from the coaches standpoint, but dismissed from team wouldnt exactly be the most accurate way to put it either. Do you know what a rhetorical question is, Dorothy? I wish there was rhetorical button on here that would change the typeface to magenta or something, because it's obviously hard to decipher tone and inflection for some people. I don't actually believe they left on their own accord, and if you have proof they did, please share with us that was the case. Even Volleyguy, who seems more knowledgeable about Tom's situation than anyone on here, hinted that Tom didn't leave the team like the way Gamova and Fofao left their teams. Besides, have people forgotten about Karch's interview with Hebert when he stated that the "whole is more important than the individual parts?" If Logan's or Hooker's departures were similar to Gamova or Fofao leaving their teams on their own accord, I'm sure Karch would have told Hebert that was the case, or we would have heard Tom make a statement that she retired from the national team. It seems your posts, Dorothy, indicate a desire on your part to see these players return to the NT. Are you suggesting that this entire time you believed Logan and Destinee didn't want to be on the team? Or do you believe that their departures from the team were involuntary?
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Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 2, 2015 16:35:02 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< I actually think Team USA has been more the exception in that we haven't had a history of player/coach or player/player disputes leading to notable absences from the team. I think the motivations for pursuing a professional volleyball career are a bit different for Americans so that might make our players naturally more willing to put up with whatever to play for the National Team. There are several very talented Serbs who have retired from the national team because of disputes with Terzic. Poland's many coaches have alienated various players at points, and IIRC, even Guidetti drove some German players away and it's not like they have enough depth to do that. Italy has its whole own set of drama too. No one questions when Ze sends a player home.
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 16:37:04 GMT -5
Gamova, Fofao and Hooker are all also very different athletes. The relationships between them and their coaches and their teammates are all also very different. Please describe in detail how these players relate to their coaches and teammates. Also, you and some other people on here need to stop misinterpreting my comments about Fofao and Gamova. I'm not trying to say these athletes are Tom and Hooker. LOL Instead, I'm arguing that their coaches went out of their ways to bring them back to their national teams, and that is what's analogous to what Karch ought to do. The point I'm making is that it's not unreasonable for a coach to want the best talent on the squad, witnessed by the Brazilian and Russian coaches' moves to bring back their top talent. At this point, just forget I even mentioned Fofao and Gamova. Pretend I just made the statement that coaches have sought out capable athletes to play on their national teams with the intent of being more successful without any examples proving my point.
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 16:52:29 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< I actually think Team USA has been more the exception in that we haven't had a history of player/coach or player/player disputes leading to notable absences from the team. I think the motivations for pursuing a professional volleyball career are a bit different for Americans so that might make our players naturally more willing to put up with whatever to play for the National Team. There are several very talented Serbs who have retired from the national team because of disputes with Terzic. Poland's many coaches have alienated various players at points, and IIRC, even Guidetti drove some German players away and it's not like they have enough depth to do that. Italy has its whole own set of drama too. No one questions when Ze sends a player home. Do you believe this is common then? Which Serbian, Polish, and German superstars have been kicked off their rosters because of conflicts with the coach? I don't really care about the players who get cut because they don't have the talent to be on their teams. Instead, I'm wondering if there is precedence in professional volleyball for coaches to keep their most capable and talented players off their rosters.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 2, 2015 17:01:41 GMT -5
Newsflash, the sweeping opinion on volleytalk is not a great barometer of the truth. No question in Tom's case it was a situation of both parties recognizing its time to move on. There is ZERO truth to the fact Hooker was kicked off for good. That isnt a sweeping opinion of volleytalkers, that would be the actual truth whether or not you choose to believe that. Eye roll all you like, but that doesnt change the facts. I never suggested there wasnt dissatisfaction from the coaches standpoint, but dismissed from team wouldnt exactly be the most accurate way to put it either. Do you know what a rhetorical question is, Dorothy? I wish there was rhetorical button on here that would change the typeface to magenta or something, because it's obviously hard to decipher tone and inflection for some people. I don't actually believe they left on their own accord, and if you have proof they did, please share with us that was the case. Even Volleyguy, who seems more knowledgeable about Tom's situation than anyone on here, hinted that Tom didn't leave the team like the way Gamova and Fofao left their teams. Besides, have people forgotten about Karch's interview with Hebert when he stated that the "whole is more important than the individual parts?" If Logan's or Hooker's departures were similar to Gamova or Fofao leaving their teams on their own accord, I'm sure Karch would have told Hebert that was the case, or we would have heard Tom make a statement that she retired from the national team. It seems your posts, Dorothy, indicate a desire on your part to see these players return to the NT. Are you suggesting that this entire time you believed Logan and Destinee didn't want to be on the team? Or do you believe that their departures from the team were involuntary? The first thing that needs to be said, is that Hooker and Tom's situations are in no way related, and that this is a thread that is about Hooker and Tom got lumped in. What kind of "proof" could be provided? A written statement by the players or coach? I think a good many people on here know the circumstances in which those two are not with the team, and I think those folks don't find it necessary to lay that out in a public forum. There are plenty of people on this site who are in the know, and are accurate when they make a statement, and there are more than a share who are not. That is for readers to decide who they deem credible and who they don't. To make myself clear(er),I want the best players on the roster, just as I imagine anyone would. I havent said anything that remotely suggests Hooker didnt want to be on the team, and I suggested that Tom's status on the NT is as much her own choice as anyone's. Hooker and Karch clearly had a breach that led to her no longer being on the NT, as I have stated pretty clearly, that was not a permanent decision. My point is that their absence is not a black and white issue of being told "you are done with the NT" Lastly, I don't see Logan as the type of person who would make a formal announcement about anything. She is her own person, does her thing, and I am sure has no problem with anyone guessing or speculating what she is up too. I would love to see Hooker with the NT and would love to see Tom on the team if she could help us. It would have to be a situation where they were of ourse committed to the vision Karch has. Like it or not, he is the coach. I don't see any scenario that Tom will play with NT, and think there is a good chance you will see Hooker again. The reasons they don't play can't be stubbornness or ego, because that would be really unfortunate given they are all adults.
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Post by volleyguy on Feb 2, 2015 17:07:01 GMT -5
Can anyone else think of a time when an inexperienced volleyball coach kicked "challenging," professional players (albeit the most talented) off a team, or is this unique to Crotch? It seems to me that coaches are doing everything in their power to get their best talents into their respective gyms. Russia brought Gamova back, and Zé tried to get Fofão back after she retired from the national team. Then there's Crotch Cry, 3-time Olympian who will not be upstaged! >.< I actually think Team USA has been more the exception in that we haven't had a history of player/coach or player/player disputes leading to notable absences from the team. I think the motivations for pursuing a professional volleyball career are a bit different for Americans so that might make our players naturally more willing to put up with whatever to play for the National Team. There are several very talented Serbs who have retired from the national team because of disputes with Terzic. Poland's many coaches have alienated various players at points, and IIRC, even Guidetti drove some German players away and it's not like they have enough depth to do that. Italy has its whole own set of drama too. No one questions when Ze sends a player home. My take on this is that there isn't necessarily a propensity for fewer conflicts between/among players and coaches on the USA teams in general. There is a very strong desire among US athletes to represent the US in the Olympics, especially in the traditional Olympic sports. I suspect that it's a combination of patriotism, prestige and the so-called "Wheaties Effect," in addition to the lack of professional opportunities and publicity for those sports in the USA.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 2, 2015 17:08:48 GMT -5
I actually think Team USA has been more the exception in that we haven't had a history of player/coach or player/player disputes leading to notable absences from the team. I think the motivations for pursuing a professional volleyball career are a bit different for Americans so that might make our players naturally more willing to put up with whatever to play for the National Team. There are several very talented Serbs who have retired from the national team because of disputes with Terzic. Poland's many coaches have alienated various players at points, and IIRC, even Guidetti drove some German players away and it's not like they have enough depth to do that. Italy has its whole own set of drama too. No one questions when Ze sends a player home. Do you believe this is common then? Which Serbian, Polish, and German superstars have been kicked off their rosters because of conflicts with the coach? I don't really care about the players who get cut because they don't have the talent to be on their teams. Instead, I'm wondering if there is precedence in professional volleyball for coaches to keep their most capable and talented players off their rosters. Anja Spasojevic for Serbia; she's not the only one but she's the one who would have made a difference for them. Glinka, Skowronska and Werblinska have all been on the outs with the Polish NT because of coaching at some point in their careers. Furst and Guidetti fell out last year, hence her "retirement from the NT. Not sure if she'll come back since he got fired.
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 17:34:52 GMT -5
Do you believe this is common then? Which Serbian, Polish, and German superstars have been kicked off their rosters because of conflicts with the coach? I don't really care about the players who get cut because they don't have the talent to be on their teams. Instead, I'm wondering if there is precedence in professional volleyball for coaches to keep their most capable and talented players off their rosters. Anja Spasojevic for Serbia; she's not the only one but she's the one who would have made a difference for them. Glinka, Skowronska and Werblinska have all been on the outs with the Polish NT because of coaching at some point in their careers. Furst and Guidetti fell out last year, hence her "retirement from the NT. Not sure if she'll come back since he got fired. I don't think Spasojevic would have made a difference for Serbia, considering she was injured for the Olympics. She would have still been behind Brankica Mihajlovic, Jelena Nikolic and Jovana on the pins. And when did Glinka, Skowronska and Werblinska get cut? All of them played for Poland in the Olympics.
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