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Post by holidayhusker on Jan 31, 2015 0:51:35 GMT -5
Your point of view is interesting to me ? Why do you encourage Karch to make amends with a petulant player like Hooker, yet you share that Tom is a difficult teammate? You know what I am asking? Why the double standard on your part. This comment is directed to all of you. I keep reading Gold Medal as if that award should excuse all the difficulties that a player exhibits. I respect Karch a great deal because win or lose, he had the guts and integrity to be a coach that expects standards from ALL OF HIS PLAYERS! That to me is class! I would rather get the bronze and have players that learned to respect each other and not showboat than a gold medal team full of ego driven superstars that are in the game for themselves and their own glory. I'm sorry but I'm not following any of this. Dorothy has never advocated for the exclusion of Tom. As for the last sentence, if you're referring to Tom in anyway, I'm sorry, I'd have to vehemently disagree. I have great respect for Dorothy....have for years. If I misinterpreted his statements then I apologize. The last sentence was pointed toward Hooker and not Tom. I can handle competitive. I can't handle arrogance and selfishness and we have so many athletes these days that exemplify that. Thats why a find the comment," You must be really old," hilarious. Thanks so much for proving my point of how integrity in sports is a thing of the past because with young punks, any kind of behavior is just great as long as you are winning.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 31, 2015 8:58:02 GMT -5
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion or anyone else's, in the case I felt my observations were mis-represented as harsh criticism of Tom who I consider to be the greatest US player of all time, and a really good and interesting person. I do believe if she were a guy, how she related to other players would probably not be an issue. Wasn't the topic Hooker by the way?
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Post by cecang on Jan 31, 2015 10:46:18 GMT -5
Let me get this straight, these are grown women, professional volleyball players making 6 figures, and we think their other teammates are upset because they get "death stare" from Tom or rolling eyes !!!! Or they were not polite enough to check on Berg when she fell. You guys are a trip. You underestimate and insult women. This is a sport, stop treating them like this is club or high school volleyball and everyone must get along. BS. Don't you think these players have not experienced the @$$%*!* player with all the years they have played !! They learn how to deal with it, like we do on the job. IF the team performs better without these players than with them, than yes, cut them. With their talents, I believe the NT could use their skills.
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Post by vbprisoner on Jan 31, 2015 13:11:36 GMT -5
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion or anyone else's, in the case I felt my observations were mis-represented as harsh criticism of Tom who I consider to be the greatest US player of all time, and a really good and interesting person. I do believe if she were a guy, how she related to other players would probably not be an issue. Wasn't the topic Hooker by the way? I think Flo Hyman is the greatest US player to date and I base that on her dominance during her time period. It is always a great debate on comparing players from different generations, but some athletes would be able to dominate in any generation to date and she is one.
I do agree with you 100% on your comment / opinion that if Tom were a guy her demeanor, attitude, or however you want to describe her competitiveness and desire to win would not be an issue. I said in an earlier thread that I would always prefer a player that had this competitive intensity on my team because they bring the level of focus and will to win to a higher level. Several years ago I was speaking with a very high level coach that has coached both men and women at the national team level many years ago and that coach made an interesting comment while we were watching a match and a particular player. This player had all the physical traits you want (6'1", and a great athlete), and the coach said "I love her attitude, she competes like a guy, BUT that could also be a big problem on many teams" I asked why that was a problem and she explained it this way. "With her athleticism and size she has the potential to be great, but will struggle to deal with players around her that are not as gifted and cannot perform to the standards she holds for herself and that may cause team problems." The coach then said, "most men need to compete to bond, most women need to bond to compete" so when you have a player that is one of the best on the team and has the competing mentality of a man in women's sports it could cause other players on the team to play scared or hold back in fear of making mistakes. Then the coach said, "I hope she has a strong coach that can channel that attitude to make the team better."
I have not seen Tom play enough to say this applies to her, but after reading all the posts it made me think of that conversation many years ago and wonder if this applies to the current situation.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 31, 2015 16:15:40 GMT -5
Let me get this straight, these are grown women, professional volleyball players making 6 figures, and we think their other teammates are upset because they get "death stare" from Tom or rolling eyes !!!! Or they were not polite enough to check on Berg when she fell. You guys are a trip. You underestimate and insult women. This is a sport, stop treating them like this is club or high school volleyball and everyone must get along. BS. Don't you think these players have not experienced the @$$%*!* player with all the years they have played !! They learn how to deal with it, like we do on the job. IF the team performs better without these players than with them, than yes, cut them. With their talents, I believe the NT could use their skills. I certainly don't think its sexist to suggest that on the whole, women and men interact and relate differently. No judgement on what is better, just that it is different.
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Post by VolleyTX on Jan 31, 2015 17:42:10 GMT -5
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion or anyone else's, in the case I felt my observations were mis-represented as harsh criticism of Tom who I consider to be the greatest US player of all time, and a really good and interesting person. I do believe if she were a guy, how she related to other players would probably not be an issue. Wasn't the topic Hooker by the way? I think Flo Hyman is the greatest US player to date and I base that on her dominance during her time period. It is always a great debate on comparing players from different generations, but some athletes would be able to dominate in any generation to date and she is one.
I do agree with you 100% on your comment / opinion that if Tom were a guy her demeanor, attitude, or however you want to describe her competitiveness and desire to win would not be an issue. I said in an earlier thread that I would always prefer a player that had this competitive intensity on my team because they bring the level of focus and will to win to a higher level. Several years ago I was speaking with a very high level coach that has coached both men and women at the national team level many years ago and that coach made an interesting comment while we were watching a match and a particular player. This player had all the physical traits you want (6'1", and a great athlete), and the coach said "I love her attitude, she competes like a guy, BUT that could also be a big problem on many teams" I asked why that was a problem and she explained it this way. "With her athleticism and size she has the potential to be great, but will struggle to deal with players around her that are not as gifted and cannot perform to the standards she holds for herself and that may cause team problems." The coach then said, "most men need to compete to bond, most women need to bond to compete" so when you have a player that is one of the best on the team and has the competing mentality of a man in women's sports it could cause other players on the team to play scared or hold back in fear of making mistakes. Then the coach said, "I hope she has a strong coach that can channel that attitude to make the team better."
I have not seen Tom play enough to say this applies to her, but after reading all the posts it made me think of that conversation many years ago and wonder if this applies to the current situation.
Fascinating observation about the way women and men bond during competition. I think what pisses me off about the whole thing is that the "outside" is expected to conform rather than everyone learning to bond over each others differences. I agree that Tom is best player to every play for Team USA. I say that because she could perform every possible volleyball skill at the very highest level. I remember in the mid 2000s at many top national competitions, Tom was in the top ten statistically in multiple categories: Server, passer, digger, scorer etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:45:56 GMT -5
I think Flo Hyman is the greatest US player to date and I base that on her dominance during her time period. It is always a great debate on comparing players from different generations, but some athletes would be able to dominate in any generation to date and she is one.
I do agree with you 100% on your comment / opinion that if Tom were a guy her demeanor, attitude, or however you want to describe her competitiveness and desire to win would not be an issue. I said in an earlier thread that I would always prefer a player that had this competitive intensity on my team because they bring the level of focus and will to win to a higher level. Several years ago I was speaking with a very high level coach that has coached both men and women at the national team level many years ago and that coach made an interesting comment while we were watching a match and a particular player. This player had all the physical traits you want (6'1", and a great athlete), and the coach said "I love her attitude, she competes like a guy, BUT that could also be a big problem on many teams" I asked why that was a problem and she explained it this way. "With her athleticism and size she has the potential to be great, but will struggle to deal with players around her that are not as gifted and cannot perform to the standards she holds for herself and that may cause team problems." The coach then said, "most men need to compete to bond, most women need to bond to compete" so when you have a player that is one of the best on the team and has the competing mentality of a man in women's sports it could cause other players on the team to play scared or hold back in fear of making mistakes. Then the coach said, "I hope she has a strong coach that can channel that attitude to make the team better."
I have not seen Tom play enough to say this applies to her, but after reading all the posts it made me think of that conversation many years ago and wonder if this applies to the current situation.
Fascinating observation about the way women and men bond during competition. I think what pisses me off about the whole thing is that the "outside" is expected to conform rather than everyone learning to bond over each others differences. I agree that Tom is best player to every play for Team USA. I say that because she could perform every possible volleyball skill at the very highest level. I remember in the mid 2000s at many top national competitions, Tom was in the top ten statistically in multiple categories: Server, passer, digger, scorer etc. Women who compete like men are always treated as outsiders, criticized, told they're the ones that are disruptive/have to conform to the competitive female ideal, etc. It requires an exceptionally strong coach with strong communication skills and experience managing personalities to get the team to a place where it can function at its most efficient capacity as a unit AND individuals can compete the way they're wired to compete. Unfortunately for Logan Tom, Team USA does not have a coach with those skills. Excluding players because you don't have the ability to manage their inclusion is an incredibly poor way to handle team dynamics.
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Post by Upfrontvb on Jan 31, 2015 21:33:21 GMT -5
Let me get this straight, these are grown women, professional volleyball players making 6 figures, and we think their other teammates are upset because they get "death stare" from Tom or rolling eyes !!!! Or they were not polite enough to check on Berg when she fell. You guys are a trip. You underestimate and insult women. This is a sport, stop treating them like this is club or high school volleyball and everyone must get along. BS. Don't you think these players have not experienced the @$$%*!* player with all the years they have played !! They learn how to deal with it, like we do on the job. IF the team performs better without these players than with them, than yes, cut them. With their talents, I believe the NT could use their skills. I agree with everything you had to say, you are spot on. These players are women not little kids and they probably care more about their own play then getting the look from another teammate. Personally I don't like it when I see players being an ass out of the floor when things don't go their way or they're mad at a teammate. Just makes me think less of them as a person than a player.
Posters have voiced their opinions about the Berg incident. I agree someone should have done a little more to see if she was ok. But oh well. Teammates are always ready to give you a high five when you do something right, but when something goes wrong as in that case....I believe at that point in the game, the team was already defeated and it was icing on the cake.
But the last sentence, I'm nor sure if you are making a statement that Tom and Hooker should be playing on the USA team because we need them to win. Tom has been having a mediocre season thus far. Yes she makes some wow plays but if your playing at that level then you should be making some of those plays. Hooker still appears to have the power to hit and jump but she is playing against smaller and lesser opponents thus far in this club season and now she is hurt. These two women do not make up the whole team and the team has been doing well. The USA team of the era of Tom and Hooker, was not always on top and lost some tough matches too.
Whatever USA Team is selected, its the best team out on the floor. Like it or not if some of your favorite players are on it or not.
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Post by kokyu on Feb 1, 2015 4:24:54 GMT -5
Don't like it when the best players aren't on it.
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Post by kokyu on Feb 2, 2015 3:27:10 GMT -5
I'm sure Murphy has Hooker beat on the stats.
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Post by ballervolley on Feb 2, 2015 5:50:10 GMT -5
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 10:34:20 GMT -5
I'm sure Murphy has Hooker beat on the stats. lolololol
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 2, 2015 12:16:07 GMT -5
Fascinating observation about the way women and men bond during competition. I think what pisses me off about the whole thing is that the "outside" is expected to conform rather than everyone learning to bond over each others differences. I agree that Tom is best player to every play for Team USA. I say that because she could perform every possible volleyball skill at the very highest level. I remember in the mid 2000s at many top national competitions, Tom was in the top ten statistically in multiple categories: Server, passer, digger, scorer etc. Women who compete like men are always treated as outsiders, criticized, told they're the ones that are disruptive/have to conform to the competitive female ideal, etc. It requires an exceptionally strong coach with strong communication skills and experience managing personalities to get the team to a place where it can function at its most efficient capacity as a unit AND individuals can compete the way they're wired to compete. Unfortunately for Logan Tom, Team USA does not have a coach with those skills. Excluding players because you don't have the ability to manage their inclusion is an incredibly poor way to handle team dynamics. While you are made up of individuals, being a great team sometimes means surrendering the things you want to do, or adapting behaviors for the good of the group. It does take a strong coach to manage mulitple personalities, and get them to function in an efficient capacity. But it also takes players willing to adjust, recognizing what the group needs, adapt to how they relate etc....... I am not saying this is what Tom needs to do, or did or didnt do, but all players in teams in general male or female. I remember a conversation I had with a GREAT player who was an all-american who didnt find it necessary to go to team functions, bond with players off the court etc...... The conversation was, "even if you don't see the value of that, or the importance of that, if the group does, than sometimes you have to do some things you arent crazy about, for the good of the group". That or ski, golf or play tennis! Being on a team means surrendering the things you want to do, or feel like you need to do, for what is in the best interest of the group. Having said that, the group also has to recognize that they have to put up with the shortcomings, or individual personality types also in the best interest of the group. It is very difficult to develop great teams, and its very difficult at times to be a great teammate. Legendary soccer coach Anson Dorrance years ago developed a really disciplined warm-up routine where as soon as players showed up to practice, they were in a very detailed regiment of individualized stretching and skill work. He noticed morale wasnt very good after implementing, and asked his players why? Their response was, "when we stretch casually as a group at the beginning of practice, its a time where we get to catch up with each other about our day, families, boyfriends........" While Dorrance found that to be ridiculous, he scrapped what he thought best in the best interest of what the kids wanted because it put them in the best position to be successful. It wasnt about what he wanted, what he was most comfortable with, it was about finding a way for the group to perform best. In this case it was him adapting and surrendering what he wanted to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 12:28:48 GMT -5
Women who compete like men are always treated as outsiders, criticized, told they're the ones that are disruptive/have to conform to the competitive female ideal, etc. It requires an exceptionally strong coach with strong communication skills and experience managing personalities to get the team to a place where it can function at its most efficient capacity as a unit AND individuals can compete the way they're wired to compete. Unfortunately for Logan Tom, Team USA does not have a coach with those skills. Excluding players because you don't have the ability to manage their inclusion is an incredibly poor way to handle team dynamics. While you are made up of individuals, being a great team sometimes means surrendering the things you want to do, or adapting behaviors for the good of the group. It does take a strong coach to manage mulitple personalities, and get them to function in an efficient capacity. But it also takes players willing to adjust, recognizing what the group needs, adapt to how they relate etc....... I am not saying this is what Tom needs to do, or did or didnt do, but all players in teams in general male or female. I remember a conversation I had with a GREAT player who was an all-american who didnt find it necessary to go to team functions, bond with players off the court etc...... The conversation was, "even if you don't see the value of that, or the importance of that, if the group does, than sometimes you have to do some things you arent crazy about, for the good of the group". That or ski, golf or play tennis! Being on a team means surrendering the things you want to do, or feel like you need to do, for what is in the best interest of the group. Having said that, the group also has to recognize that they have to put up with the shortcomings, or individual personality types also in the best interest of the group. It is very difficult to develop great teams, and its very difficult at times to be a great teammate. Legendary soccer coach Anson Dorrance years ago developed a really disciplined warm-up routine where as soon as players showed up to practice, they were in a very detailed regiment of individualized stretching and skill work. He noticed morale wasnt very good after implementing, and asked his players why? Their response was, "when we stretch casually as a group at the beginning of practice, its a time where we get to catch up with each other about our day, families, boyfriends........" While Dorrance found that to be ridiculous, he scrapped what he thought best in the best interest of what the kids wanted because it put them in the best position to be successful. It wasnt about what he wanted, what he was most comfortable with, it was about finding a way for the group to perform best. In this case it was him adapting and surrendering what he wanted to do. I couldn't agree more. Again though, in the case of female team dynamics, I think that, more often than not, the "women who compete like men" are most often the ones treated like problems, or told they are the ones that are different and must conform, or are unfairly criticized (in my opinion). They're in love with a team sport but are wired to compete differently than the majority of their teammates. That's incredibly difficult. Changing who you are as a competitor? That's an incredibly request to ask of a professional athlete. I agree that it takes a lot to develop a great team, and I consider having a great, experienced coach to be the cornerstone of that endeavor. Unfortunately, in this case of Team USA and Tom, I do not feel that Team USA has a coach with experienced managing the team dynamics of professional female competitors, and that is a problem when the best players in the world are being excluded because of an inability, related to inexperience and social weaknesses, to manage their inclusion. I also don't think that Tom doesn't have changes to make. I just don't think that her competitive nature is one of them.
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Post by #skoskers on Feb 2, 2015 13:32:52 GMT -5
Fascinating observation about the way women and men bond during competition. I think what pisses me off about the whole thing is that the "outside" is expected to conform rather than everyone learning to bond over each others differences. I agree that Tom is best player to every play for Team USA. I say that because she could perform every possible volleyball skill at the very highest level. I remember in the mid 2000s at many top national competitions, Tom was in the top ten statistically in multiple categories: Server, passer, digger, scorer etc. Women who compete like men are always treated as outsiders, criticized, told they're the ones that are disruptive/have to conform to the competitive female ideal, etc. It requires an exceptionally strong coach with strong communication skills and experience managing personalities to get the team to a place where it can function at its most efficient capacity as a unit AND individuals can compete the way they're wired to compete. Unfortunately for Logan Tom, Team USA does not have a coach with those skills. Excluding players because you don't have the ability to manage their inclusion is an incredibly poor way to handle team dynamics. I couldn't have said this any better. I see your name is AllAmerican11--are you the AA#11 that used to stir controversy awhile ago? If so, bravo to you with this post. If you're not that person, I still give you kudos for articulating your point so well. Thanks for the contribution to our discussion! =)
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