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Post by po'okela on Jan 30, 2015 14:40:52 GMT -5
haha 2 pages of nonsense.
it just bothers me that nobody runs to any of the players to make sure they're okay. they all kind of just stand around and have this "oh sh*t" reaction.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 17:17:44 GMT -5
Your post history reflects what YOU specifically said. And your post history reflects a number of similar and consistently negative comments about Logan following the 2012 Olympic final. You're certainly entitled to your opinion in any regard. However, you often react to criticism with an over the top characterization of the criticism such as calling what I said "a ridiculous embellishment" and whatnot (you can also verify that with a review of your post history btw). I'd have a lot more respect for your opinion if you just directly stated that you agree that Logan has a negative effect on the team and move on, as opposed to having you attempt to rationalize your own long, tired history with VolleyTalk. Correction: You actually said it was "ridiculous" and an "absurd embellishment" I wasnt reacting to criticism, I was reacting to what was a clear exaggeration of what I have ever stated about Tom. " entirely negative force"? I never came close to suggesting that, and suggesting I have, would be both ridiculous and and absurd embellishment" I was also reacting to what was total hypocrisy on your part, given your characterization of her is in fact the most negative thing I have seen posted about her. I don't back off for a second the fact that I think, and have "directly stated" she is a very difficult person to play with, and I dont think she provided very good leadership when things went wrong in gold medal match. As I also said, that would be very consistent with hundreds of comments about Tom, including and especially your own comment. I stand by what I said earlier: "I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not." At least you made your opinion clear. I would ask, did Harmotto, Berg, Davis, Akinradewo or McCutcheon provide good leadership in the final match? No need to respond; it's a rhetorical question. If I push myself, I can allow myself to be amused by your attempt to cast my post describing Logan as "sometimes distrustful..." as encompassing her teammates and her entire being. I think any reasonable person who read my post would find it to be an attempt to humanize her. Even so, I would never categorically conclude that someone who is sometimes distrustful is a negative person or that it is the most negative thing you could say about someone, as you have done. After all, we teach our children to be distrustful, particularly towards strangers, because it can be a valuable survival skill. As I said, I think any reasonable person might think so...and there's the rub. Your shenanigans are so transparent, except to yourself apparently.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 30, 2015 17:38:36 GMT -5
I wasnt reacting to criticism, I was reacting to what was a clear exaggeration of what I have ever stated about Tom. " entirely negative force"? I never came close to suggesting that, and suggesting I have, would be both ridiculous and and absurd embellishment" I was also reacting to what was total hypocrisy on your part, given your characterization of her is in fact the most negative thing I have seen posted about her. I don't back off for a second the fact that I think, and have "directly stated" she is a very difficult person to play with, and I dont think she provided very good leadership when things went wrong in gold medal match. As I also said, that would be very consistent with hundreds of comments about Tom, including and especially your own comment. I stand by what I said earlier: "I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not." At least you made your opinion clear. I would ask, did Harmotto, Berg, Davis, Akinradewo or McCutcheon provide good leadership in the final match? No need to respond; it's a rhetorical question. If I push myself, I can allow myself to be amused by your attempt to cast my post describing Logan as "sometimes distrustful..." as encompassing her teammates and her entire being. I think any reasonable person who read my post would find it to be an attempt to humanize her. Even so, I would never categorically conclude that someone who is sometimes distrustful is a negative person or that it is the most negative thing you could say about someone, as you have done. After all, we teach our children to be distrustful, particularly towards strangers, because it can be a valuable survival skill. As I said, I think any reasonable person might think so...and there's the rub. Your shenanigans are so transparent, except to yourself. I guess a reasonable person was supposed to extrapolate from your post you were attempting to humanize her. The problem with your distrust explanation is that she isn't a child, and her teammates aren't strangers. I think Tom is a legend and have said so many times, I think she is a good person, and have said so many times, I believe she is a difficult teammate and have said that many times. Probably 50 different posters have also suggested she was a difficult teammate literally hundreds of times over the years. Evidently me suggesting that bothers you in particular. Clearly you don't like me (which is fine) because when I make the same observation that most people have, it really bothers you. I have no idea how Tom is even part of this discussion that has been about getting Hooker back. I would love to see Hooker back, and Tom if she could help them be better.
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Post by vbprisoner on Jan 30, 2015 17:56:51 GMT -5
I wasnt reacting to criticism, I was reacting to what was a clear exaggeration of what I have ever stated about Tom. " entirely negative force"? I never came close to suggesting that, and suggesting I have, would be both ridiculous and and absurd embellishment" I was also reacting to what was total hypocrisy on your part, given your characterization of her is in fact the most negative thing I have seen posted about her. I don't back off for a second the fact that I think, and have "directly stated" she is a very difficult person to play with, and I dont think she provided very good leadership when things went wrong in gold medal match. As I also said, that would be very consistent with hundreds of comments about Tom, including and especially your own comment. I stand by what I said earlier: "I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not." At least you made your opinion clear. I would ask, did Harmotto, Berg, Davis, Akinradewo or McCutcheon provide good leadership in the final match? No need to respond; it's a rhetorical question. If I push myself, I can allow myself to be amused by your attempt to cast my post describing Logan as "sometimes distrustful..." as encompassing her teammates and her entire being. I think any reasonable person who read my post would find it to be an attempt to humanize her. Even so, I would never categorically conclude that someone who is sometimes distrustful is a negative person or that it is the most negative thing you could say about someone, as you have done. After all, we teach our children to be distrustful, particularly towards strangers, because it can be a valuable survival skill. As I said, I think any reasonable person might think so...and there's the rub. Your shenanigans are so transparent, except to yourself apparently. I don't want to get in the middle of your spirited debate, but as I read your post including....."That's her personality. She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know" one might misinterpret your wording and look at that as a real problem and she lacks character. I originally thought you were stating she sometime can not be trusted, .and then eventually it made more sense that she sometime did not trust others, and you should include on the court for better context.
The reason I am pointing this out is because you all are debating on interpretation of what is written and when folks post and it is not 100% clear there is a good chance someone is going to misinterpret it like I did at first (I now understand what you were saying and it is not as negative as I thought).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 18:28:28 GMT -5
Destinee is an unrivaled athlete. She has less than stellar form, which as others have stated, I believe makes her more injury prone. Nonetheless, she is an outstanding volleyball player. That being said... 1) Look at any of the highlight reels for any of the tall American/Canadian (yo Pavan) players in Japan. They are all veryimpressive. 2) It's called a "highlight" reel for a reason. She has had some poorer matches that obviously wouldn't show up in these videos. There was a game between her team and Fawcett's team where Fawcett destroyed her the first two sets. 3) I really wish people would stop comparing volleyball to basketball. Lebron James and Destinee Hooker are different. Lebron James can score all by himself. Destinee Hooker can't pass/dig or set. There are two things that HAVE to happen before she can be successful practically every play. She needs others to set her up to score. Hence why Larson always talks about volleyball being the "ultimate team sport." I understand it's more complicated than that, but volleyball is a more team-oriented sport than many other sports (including basketball unless you're the Spurs maybe). So having your "star player" isn't as important IMO in volleyball, especially if her cast 1) isn't as good and 2) doesn't like her. 4) Finally, I also have a hard time believing Karch is the only one who has an issue with Destinee. There have been interviews with multiple players (including Olympic vets like Harmotto and Foluke) where all they seem to want to talk about is "team chemistry." The girls look like they enjoy playing together more now than they ever did during the Olympics. Tom always looked pissed at her teammates. Maybe all of this talk about chemistry is "Karch brainwashing" but I'm starting to believe that some of the girls had issues with Destinee and Tom. Maybe I'm wrong but there's just as much evidence supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread. Nonetheless, what you can't tell me is that chemistry isn't important in volleyball. Everyone keeps pointing to Gamova. Well, Russia has lost matches before because of her %*$#ty attitude which straight up deflated her teammates. The Nebraska '07 team was freakishly talented and chemistry got in the way. If the other players on USA don't want to play with her, than I'm sorry, putting her back on the team won't win us gold in Rio either. Alot of this is me playing devil's advocate I suppose, but I think it's so much less black and white than people are making it out to be. I do think Hooker is immensely talented. I also think she hurts team chemistry. Ultimately, it becomes an issue of figuring out where in that grey area having her on the team lies. But you haven't provided any evidence supporting your claim? ... hence what "there's just as much evident supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread" means.
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Post by holidayhusker on Jan 30, 2015 20:12:04 GMT -5
I stand by what I said earlier: "I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not." At least you made your opinion clear. I would ask, did Harmotto, Berg, Davis, Akinradewo or McCutcheon provide good leadership in the final match? No need to respond; it's a rhetorical question. If I push myself, I can allow myself to be amused by your attempt to cast my post describing Logan as "sometimes distrustful..." as encompassing her teammates and her entire being. I think any reasonable person who read my post would find it to be an attempt to humanize her. Even so, I would never categorically conclude that someone who is sometimes distrustful is a negative person or that it is the most negative thing you could say about someone, as you have done. After all, we teach our children to be distrustful, particularly towards strangers, because it can be a valuable survival skill. As I said, I think any reasonable person might think so...and there's the rub. Your shenanigans are so transparent, except to yourself. I guess a reasonable person was supposed to extrapolate from your post you were attempting to humanize her. The problem with your distrust explanation is that she isn't a child, and her teammates aren't strangers. I think Tom is a legend and have said so many times, I think she is a good person, and have said so many times, I believe she is a difficult teammate and have said that many times. Probably 50 different posters have also suggested she was a difficult teammate literally hundreds of times over the years. Evidently me suggesting that bothers you in particular. Clearly you don't like me (which is fine) because when I make the same observation that most people have, it really bothers you. I have no idea how Tom is even part of this discussion that has been about getting Hooker back. I would love to see Hooker back, and Tom if she could help them be better. Your point of view is interesting to me ? Why do you encourage Karch to make amends with a petulant player like Hooker, yet you share that Tom is a difficult teammate? You know what I am asking? Why the double standard on your part. This comment is directed to all of you. I keep reading Gold Medal as if that award should excuse all the difficulties that a player exhibits. I respect Karch a great deal because win or lose, he had the guts and integrity to be a coach that expects standards from ALL OF HIS PLAYERS! That to me is class! I would rather get the bronze and have players that learned to respect each other and not showboat than a gold medal team full of ego driven superstars that are in the game for themselves and their own glory.
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Post by midnightblue on Jan 30, 2015 20:33:42 GMT -5
I guess a reasonable person was supposed to extrapolate from your post you were attempting to humanize her. The problem with your distrust explanation is that she isn't a child, and her teammates aren't strangers. I think Tom is a legend and have said so many times, I think she is a good person, and have said so many times, I believe she is a difficult teammate and have said that many times. Probably 50 different posters have also suggested she was a difficult teammate literally hundreds of times over the years. Evidently me suggesting that bothers you in particular. Clearly you don't like me (which is fine) because when I make the same observation that most people have, it really bothers you. I have no idea how Tom is even part of this discussion that has been about getting Hooker back. I would love to see Hooker back, and Tom if she could help them be better. Your point of view is interesting to me ? Why do you encourage Karch to make amends with a petulant player like Hooker, yet you share that Tom is a difficult teammate? You know what I am asking? Why the double standard on your part. This comment is directed to all of you. I keep reading Gold Medal as if that award should excuse all the difficulties that a player exhibits. I respect Karch a great deal because win or lose, he had the guts and integrity to be a coach that expects standards from ALL OF HIS PLAYERS! That to me is class! I would rather get the bronze and have players that learned to respect each other and not showboat than a gold medal team full of ego driven superstars that are in the game for themselves and their own glory. I'm sorry but I'm not following any of this. Dorothy has never advocated for the exclusion of Tom. As for the last sentence, if you're referring to Tom in anyway, I'm sorry, I'd have to vehemently disagree.
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Post by nativevolley on Jan 30, 2015 20:36:43 GMT -5
I guess a reasonable person was supposed to extrapolate from your post you were attempting to humanize her. The problem with your distrust explanation is that she isn't a child, and her teammates aren't strangers. I think Tom is a legend and have said so many times, I think she is a good person, and have said so many times, I believe she is a difficult teammate and have said that many times. Probably 50 different posters have also suggested she was a difficult teammate literally hundreds of times over the years. Evidently me suggesting that bothers you in particular. Clearly you don't like me (which is fine) because when I make the same observation that most people have, it really bothers you. I have no idea how Tom is even part of this discussion that has been about getting Hooker back. I would love to see Hooker back, and Tom if she could help them be better. Your point of view is interesting to me ? Why do you encourage Karch to make amends with a petulant player like Hooker, yet you share that Tom is a difficult teammate? You know what I am asking? Why the double standard on your part. This comment is directed to all of you. I keep reading Gold Medal as if that award should excuse all the difficulties that a player exhibits. I respect Karch a great deal because win or lose, he had the guts and integrity to be a coach that expects standards from ALL OF HIS PLAYERS! That to me is class! I would rather get the bronze and have players that learned to respect each other and not showboat than a gold medal team full of ego driven superstars that are in the game for themselves and their own glory. You seem old... Like old age, old... Ha ha... ?
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Post by nativevolley on Jan 30, 2015 20:38:47 GMT -5
However, I would love to play along side Tom, so I can give her death ray eyes as well.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 20:39:36 GMT -5
I stand by what I said earlier: "I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not." At least you made your opinion clear. I would ask, did Harmotto, Berg, Davis, Akinradewo or McCutcheon provide good leadership in the final match? No need to respond; it's a rhetorical question. If I push myself, I can allow myself to be amused by your attempt to cast my post describing Logan as "sometimes distrustful..." as encompassing her teammates and her entire being. I think any reasonable person who read my post would find it to be an attempt to humanize her. Even so, I would never categorically conclude that someone who is sometimes distrustful is a negative person or that it is the most negative thing you could say about someone, as you have done. After all, we teach our children to be distrustful, particularly towards strangers, because it can be a valuable survival skill. As I said, I think any reasonable person might think so...and there's the rub. Your shenanigans are so transparent, except to yourself apparently. I don't want to get in the middle of your spirited debate, but as I read your post including....."That's her personality. She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know" one might misinterpret your wording and look at that as a real problem and she lacks character. I originally thought you were stating she sometime can not be trusted, .and then eventually it made more sense that she sometime did not trust others, and you should include on the court for better context.
The reason I am pointing this out is because you all are debating on interpretation of what is written and when folks post and it is not 100% clear there is a good chance someone is going to misinterpret it like I did at first (I now understand what you were saying and it is not as negative as I thought).
I understand your point, but in the next sentence I said she was also funny, and really caring, and later said that she was human, just like everyone else. I concluded by saying that like many things, the truth probably lies somewhere other than "Logan is negative or Karch is horrible." All of those later things were things that in my mind counter-balanced the first statement. The question, I guess, is why did your mind focus only on that first sentence or two? I posted this in an earlier post to suggest a possible explanation, if that helps: www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html
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Post by vbprisoner on Jan 30, 2015 21:08:57 GMT -5
I don't want to get in the middle of your spirited debate, but as I read your post including....."That's her personality. She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know" one might misinterpret your wording and look at that as a real problem and she lacks character. I originally thought you were stating she sometime can not be trusted, .and then eventually it made more sense that she sometime did not trust others, and you should include on the court for better context.
The reason I am pointing this out is because you all are debating on interpretation of what is written and when folks post and it is not 100% clear there is a good chance someone is going to misinterpret it like I did at first (I now understand what you were saying and it is not as negative as I thought).
I understand your point, but in the next sentence I said she was also funny, and really caring, and later said that she was human, just like everyone else. I concluded by saying that like many things, the truth lies some other than Logan is negative or Karch is horrible. All of those later things were things that balanced the picture of her. The question, I guess, is why did your mind focus only on that first sentence or two? I read the entire post, but when I thought you stated she sometimes cannot be trusted it threw a negative light on her for me and everything else was lost after that. Also, like most people I was multitasking while in VT and there were several posts during the debate and I read through them quickly. I was not condemning you for the post but pointing out afterwards that, although I was not completely focused, I misinterpreted that first sentence and that probably happen a lot on this board. After reading it again during the flurry of posts I realized what you meant and then did not take that as negative.
FWIW I would rather have a player like Tom that is intensely competitive and expects complete effort, focus and is mentally tough on my team, so I hope things can be worked out.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 21:15:41 GMT -5
I understand your point, but in the next sentence I said she was also funny, and really caring, and later said that she was human, just like everyone else. I concluded by saying that like many things, the truth lies some other than Logan is negative or Karch is horrible. All of those later things were things that balanced the picture of her. The question, I guess, is why did your mind focus only on that first sentence or two? I read the entire post, but when I thought you stated she sometimes cannot be trusted it threw a negative light on her for me and everything else was lost after that. Also, like most people I was multitasking while in VT and there were several posts during the debate and I read through them quickly. I was not condemning you for the post but pointing out afterwards that, although I was not completely focused, I misinterpreted that first sentence and that probably happen a lot on this board. After reading it again during the flurry of posts I realized what you meant and then did not take that as negative.
FWIW I would rather have a player like Tom that is intensely competitive and expects complete effort, focus and is mentally tough on my team, so I hope things can be worked out.
I thought about what you said, and realize that the word distrustful might be easily misinterpreted. My understanding of its meaning, and the way I intended to use it, was as someone who is slow to trust others or otherwise cautious, as opposed to untrustworthy, which suggests they can't be trusted.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 21:55:21 GMT -5
I read the entire post, but when I thought you stated she sometimes cannot be trusted it threw a negative light on her for me and everything else was lost after that. Also, like most people I was multitasking while in VT and there were several posts during the debate and I read through them quickly. I was not condemning you for the post but pointing out afterwards that, although I was not completely focused, I misinterpreted that first sentence and that probably happen a lot on this board. After reading it again during the flurry of posts I realized what you meant and then did not take that as negative.
FWIW I would rather have a player like Tom that is intensely competitive and expects complete effort, focus and is mentally tough on my team, so I hope things can be worked out.
I thought about what you said, and realize that the word distrustful might be easily misinterpreted. My understanding of its meaning, and the way I intended to use it, was as someone who is slow to trust others or otherwise cautious, as opposed to untrustworthy, which suggests they can't be trusted. ...so, the definition of "distrusting?"
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Post by gnu2vball on Jan 30, 2015 22:08:51 GMT -5
Three-syllable synonym for paranoid?
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 22:32:39 GMT -5
I thought about what you said, and realize that the word distrustful might be easily misinterpreted. My understanding of its meaning, and the way I intended to use it, was as someone who is slow to trust others or otherwise cautious, as opposed to untrustworthy, which suggests they can't be trusted. ...so, the definition of "distrusting?" I used the word correctly and as I intended. I'm merely saying that I realize that some people may have misunderstood or misinterpreted the word to mean untrustworthy, which might explain why people thought I was referring to her character, rather than personality. And to be clear, I don't think that the description applies to her behavior on the court or towards her team-mates. Exacting perhaps is the word for that.
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