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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 10:34:30 GMT -5
What does Logan's patience have to do with this play? Hooker was oblivious to the fact that both Berg and the MB were backing up directly in her path and that the set wasn't meant for her, not to mention that she didn't even acknowledge, or apologize to, Berg after nearly breaking her back. while you can analyze their responses or body language after, the play itself is a split second broken play in which Hooker tries to be aggressive like you would like players to be. I don't see any fault anywhere. The ball is in a grey area, Hooker tries to rip it. Tom's look is pretty typical Tom, Hooker slaps a players hand (Larson?) but you can tell she is pretty peeved. Would've been nice if anyone showed any concern for Berg. Really? It wasn't as if Hooker was in the air and unable to stop. It was a standing jump, which means that she was only looking at the ball and had plenty of time to see the play unfolding before her. I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 30, 2015 10:44:22 GMT -5
I love Tom, but she does have a typical demeanor when she plays. I think she is legendary and has been an inspiration to thousands of girls worldwide, but she's definitely not like the Carps, Coopers, or Thai girls who are always smiling.
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Post by truthandjustice on Jan 30, 2015 10:51:04 GMT -5
Tom was asked about this play...... She thought Berg was going to be out with a concussion, hence her look of oh great.
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Post by truthandjustice on Jan 30, 2015 10:52:19 GMT -5
Also, Davis was reaching her hand out to both Hooker and Berg... and you see how Hooker reacts...
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 10:54:17 GMT -5
I love Tom, but she does have a typical demeanor when she plays. I think she is legendary and has been an inspiration to thousands of girls worldwide, but she's definitely not like the Carps, Coopers, or Thai girls who are always smiling. That's her personality. She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know. She can also be funny, really caring and show a mild wild side. She's human, with her own issues, just like everyone else. She's also played for some of the best coaches in the world, and has never been characterized as disrespectful or uncoachable. The fallout with USAV is unfortunate, but as with most things, the truth probably lies somewhere other than simply Logan is negative or Karch is horrible.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 30, 2015 11:22:18 GMT -5
I'm not saying that her attitudes and behaviors have to change in order for her to be successful. I mean, the girls I mentioned that are always smiling don't really measure up to Logan. LOL
And I know that she's been coached by some of the best in the world like Guidetti and Roberto. I never said she was uncoachable. Like I've maintained throughout this thread and many others, I would love to see Karch put aside any past differences and invite the two back to Anaheim. I'm not sure if he's threatened by them or not.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 30, 2015 11:31:35 GMT -5
while you can analyze their responses or body language after, the play itself is a split second broken play in which Hooker tries to be aggressive like you would like players to be. I don't see any fault anywhere. The ball is in a grey area, Hooker tries to rip it. Tom's look is pretty typical Tom, Hooker slaps a players hand (Larson?) but you can tell she is pretty peeved. Would've been nice if anyone showed any concern for Berg. Really? It wasn't as if Hooker was in the air and unable to stop. It was a standing jump, which means that she was only looking at the ball and had plenty of time to see the play unfolding before her. I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not. That is ridiculous, to categorize what I have ever said about Tom as being "an entirely negative force" is an absurd embellishment. You just posted ""She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know."" That statement is far worse than anything I have ever suggested about her, or anything I have ever read about her on vtalk.. "distrustful" may be the single most negative statement you can ever make about a player/teammate. You made it. I have never said anything that would be even remotely close to that. Nothing I have ever said about her demeanor is inconsistent with what anyone would say about her. Marvelous player, good person, challenging teammate. In a million years couldnt imagine what having a relationship to a teammate would have to do with anything. Also, if you consider Hooker having "plenty of time to see that play unfold, I would like to know your definition of plenty of time. I have seen a backrow player collide with a player while trying to attack tons of times, I wouldnt call this rare by any stretch. There are endless comments about Tom on this subject, yet I am assassinating her character?
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 11:38:04 GMT -5
Really? It wasn't as if Hooker was in the air and unable to stop. It was a standing jump, which means that she was only looking at the ball and had plenty of time to see the play unfolding before her. I understand your relationship with Harmotto, but your consistent posts attempting to paint Tom as an entirely negative force (e.g. she didn't win any titles, "typical Tom", etc) seem beneath you--or maybe not. That is ridiculous, to categorize what I have ever said about Tom as being "an entirely negative force" is an absurd embellishment. You just posted ""She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know."" That statement is far worse than anything I have ever suggested about her, or anything I have ever read about her on vtalk.. "distrustful" may be the single most negative statement you can ever make about a player/teammate. You made it. I have never said anything that would be even remotely close to that. Nothing I have ever said about her demeanor is inconsistent with what anyone would say about her. Marvelous player, good person, challenging teammate. In a million years couldnt imagine what having a relationship to a teammate would have to do with anything. Also, if you consider Hooker having "plenty of time to see that play unfold, I would like to know your definition of plenty of time. I have seen a backrow player collide with a player while trying to attack tons of times, I wouldnt call this rare by any stretch. There are endless comments about Tom on this subject, yet I am assassinating her character? Sure, whatever you say dude. You know it's possible to review your own post history. It's a little more complicated than the quote function, so if you need help with it, you can pm me.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 30, 2015 11:42:32 GMT -5
That is ridiculous, to categorize what I have ever said about Tom as being "an entirely negative force" is an absurd embellishment. You just posted ""She's sometimes distrustful, moody and difficult to get to know."" That statement is far worse than anything I have ever suggested about her, or anything I have ever read about her on vtalk.. "distrustful" may be the single most negative statement you can ever make about a player/teammate. You made it. I have never said anything that would be even remotely close to that. Nothing I have ever said about her demeanor is inconsistent with what anyone would say about her. Marvelous player, good person, challenging teammate. In a million years couldnt imagine what having a relationship to a teammate would have to do with anything. Also, if you consider Hooker having "plenty of time to see that play unfold, I would like to know your definition of plenty of time. I have seen a backrow player collide with a player while trying to attack tons of times, I wouldnt call this rare by any stretch. There are endless comments about Tom on this subject, yet I am assassinating her character? Sure, whatever you say dude. You know it's possible to review your own post history. It's a little more complicated than the quote function, so if you need help with it, you can pm me. But it isn't whatever I say, it's what you said, which is far more negative than what you accused me of. Lastly, when you resort to ripping people about using the quote function or spelling etc...... you know that person recognizes they don't have a legitimate argument.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 30, 2015 11:55:37 GMT -5
If you watch the entire match in which Destinee went down with the injury, there were maybe 4 or 5 occasions where she literally ended up on her hands and knees after an attack. Although her physical ability is world-class, her positioning, approach and footwork are not. Her injury was the result of landing on the opposing player's foot, but in reality, the longer she plays, after child-birth and as her body naturally gets a little older, it's just as likely that she could suffer a different type of injury stemming from her poor fundamentals. I'm surprised you posted this about Destinee's landing. Watch any of Logan's games with Cannes, her season in Brazil with Pavan or any NT match that's online. I would contend that Tom isn't the most graceful lander, regardless if the attack is in the front row or if she's hitting a bic. She falls quite a bit (just as frequent as Hooker) and gets up like it's nothing. I'm not condemning this, but it seems like you're willing to ostracize Hooker ("poor fundamentals") but not accept people's collective observations of Logan's behavior on the court. Again, IDGAF about Logan's or Hooker's supposed "attitudes" or landings. I believe they need to be on the court like the way they are with their club teams. If America goes to the Olympics without them, a lot of people worldwide will be wondering WTF is wrong with Karch like the way people chastised Marichev until he begged Gamova to return. Athletes like Gamova, Hooker and Tom make this sport big. This is why ppl scoff at the Montreux tourney, because none of the top athletes participate in the competition, which makes it an incredibly dull tournament to watch.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 12:07:19 GMT -5
Sure, whatever you say dude. You know it's possible to review your own post history. It's a little more complicated than the quote function, so if you need help with it, you can pm me. But it isn't whatever I say, it's what you said, which is far more negative than what you accused me of. Lastly, when you resort to ripping people about using the quote function or spelling etc...... you know that person recognizes they don't have a legitimate argument. Your post history reflects what YOU specifically said. And your post history reflects a number of similar and consistently negative comments about Logan following the 2012 Olympic final. You're certainly entitled to your opinion in any regard. However, you often react to criticism with an over the top characterization of the criticism such as calling what I said "a ridiculous embellishment" and whatnot (you can also verify that with a review of your post history btw). I'd have a lot more respect for your opinion if you just directly stated that you agree that Logan has a negative effect on the team and move on, as opposed to having you attempt to rationalize your own long, tired history with VolleyTalk. Correction: You actually said it was "ridiculous" and an "absurd embellishment"
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 30, 2015 12:39:41 GMT -5
If you watch the entire match in which Destinee went down with the injury, there were maybe 4 or 5 occasions where she literally ended up on her hands and knees after an attack. Although her physical ability is world-class, her positioning, approach and footwork are not. Her injury was the result of landing on the opposing player's foot, but in reality, the longer she plays, after child-birth and as her body naturally gets a little older, it's just as likely that she could suffer a different type of injury stemming from her poor fundamentals. I'm surprised you posted this about Destinee's landing. Watch any of Logan's games with Cannes, her season in Brazil with Pavan or any NT match that's online. I would contend that Tom isn't the most graceful lander, regardless if the attack is in the front row or if she's hitting a bic. She falls quite a bit (just as frequent as Hooker) and gets up like it's nothing. I'm not condemning this, but it seems like you're willing to ostracize Hooker ("poor fundamentals") but not accept people's collective observations of Logan's behavior on the court. Again, IDGAF about Logan's or Hooker's supposed "attitudes" or landings. I believe they need to be on the court like the way they are with their club teams. If America goes to the Olympics without them, a lot of people worldwide will be wondering WTF is wrong with Karch like the way people chastised Marichev until he begged Gamova to return. Athletes like Gamova, Hooker and Tom make this sport big. This is why ppl scoff at the Montreux tourney, because none of the top athletes participate in the competition, which makes it an incredibly dull tournament to watch. I think you are conflating the issues with Hooker and Tom. My comment about Hooker was made in the context of comments made about her improved hitting, and were an observation about her technique and potential for injury, having nothing to do with her position on the NT. As far a Gamova goes, her situation isn't analogous to Hooker or Tom. Marichev or anyone else didn't exclude her from the Russian NT. She simply didn't want to play. She had recently gotten married, did in fact have conflicts with one or two of her teammates and just didn't want to play at that time.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 30, 2015 13:04:48 GMT -5
I'm surprised you posted this about Destinee's landing. Watch any of Logan's games with Cannes, her season in Brazil with Pavan or any NT match that's online. I would contend that Tom isn't the most graceful lander, regardless if the attack is in the front row or if she's hitting a bic. She falls quite a bit (just as frequent as Hooker) and gets up like it's nothing. I'm not condemning this, but it seems like you're willing to ostracize Hooker ("poor fundamentals") but not accept people's collective observations of Logan's behavior on the court. Again, IDGAF about Logan's or Hooker's supposed "attitudes" or landings. I believe they need to be on the court like the way they are with their club teams. If America goes to the Olympics without them, a lot of people worldwide will be wondering WTF is wrong with Karch like the way people chastised Marichev until he begged Gamova to return. Athletes like Gamova, Hooker and Tom make this sport big. This is why ppl scoff at the Montreux tourney, because none of the top athletes participate in the competition, which makes it an incredibly dull tournament to watch. I think you are conflating the issues with Hooker and Tom. My comment about Hooker was made in the context of comments made about her improved hitting, and were an observation about her technique and potential for injury, having nothing to do with her position on the NT. As far a Gamova goes, her situation isn't analogous to Hooker or Tom. Marichev or anyone else didn't exclude her from the Russian NT. She simply didn't want to play. She had recently gotten married, did in fact have conflicts with one or two of her teammates and just didn't want to play at that time. No, reread what I posted. There was no conflation on my part. I never believed that Hooker falling down would or should keep her off the team, just like the way I believe Logan’s awkward landings shouldn’t deny her placement on the NT. I don’t think you were making that argument either FWIW. Instead, I was pointing out that it seems unfair for you to observe Destinee’s technique to be grounded in “poor fundamentals” when others can’t make opinionated comments about Tom’s behavior on the court. I know all about Katya’s situation, so I’m not sure why you thought that I was implying she had been kicked off the team from my post. Indeed, she left the team on her own accord, but fans worldwide demanded Marichev to get Katya back on the team so their chances for success will improve. This is the same, analogous expectation that many of us have for Karch. Bring back two of the nation’s best players.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 30, 2015 13:07:53 GMT -5
But it isn't whatever I say, it's what you said, which is far more negative than what you accused me of. Lastly, when you resort to ripping people about using the quote function or spelling etc...... you know that person recognizes they don't have a legitimate argument. Your post history reflects what YOU specifically said. And your post history reflects a number of similar and consistently negative comments about Logan following the 2012 Olympic final. You're certainly entitled to your opinion in any regard. However, you often react to criticism with an over the top characterization of the criticism such as calling what I said "a ridiculous embellishment" and whatnot (you can also verify that with a review of your post history btw). I'd have a lot more respect for your opinion if you just directly stated that you agree that Logan has a negative effect on the team and move on, as opposed to having you attempt to rationalize your own long, tired history with VolleyTalk. Correction: You actually said it was "ridiculous" and an "absurd embellishment" I wasnt reacting to criticism, I was reacting to what was a clear exaggeration of what I have ever stated about Tom. " entirely negative force"? I never came close to suggesting that, and suggesting I have, would be both ridiculous and and absurd embellishment" I was also reacting to what was total hypocrisy on your part, given your characterization of her is in fact the most negative thing I have seen posted about her. I don't back off for a second the fact that I think, and have "directly stated" she is a very difficult person to play with, and I dont think she provided very good leadership when things went wrong in gold medal match. As I also said, that would be very consistent with hundreds of comments about Tom, including and especially your own comment.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Jan 30, 2015 13:08:35 GMT -5
Because even before hooker got up, you could see logan was irritated. I would be too, but still. You can tell from this clip alone that she has some issues, albeit not bad ones. Just ones that take getting used too. And im almost positive hooker apologized after. Any sensible human being would Only someone who has decided that Tom is the root of all USA volleyball's problems would look at this play and try to place blame on Tom. If anyone is showing attitude in this play it is Hooker. Davis shanks a pass (shocker!) .... berg has a poorly located set..... Hooker steals Tom's ball..... yet Tom is the one in the wrong here. I just don't get it! I did not say logan was in the wrong. I said by her facial expression, and her mannerisms, you can tell her personality. Again, I did not say it was a BAD thing, just something it takes getting used too. Shes hard to work with. Not because shes mean, but because she wants the best out of anyone, even herself. My mother is like that, and trust me, it was hard growing up, but without that, i wouldnt be where I am today.
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