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Post by memorybankrupt on Jan 29, 2015 16:55:52 GMT -5
USA sucked before 2010 so comparing current expectations with past performance of retired players is retarded, not that's a new thing for you. First, a PSA: People still use "retarded" as an insult? IMO it's just as inappropriate as calling something "gay." Anyway, back to point: I actually agree with you that the future looked bleak for USA volleyball after 2008 until we replaced Nnamani and THP with Hooker, Kim Glass with Jordan Larson, Nellie Spicer with Alisha Glass, and DSA with Akinradewo. In 2010, 2011, and 2012, we won the Grand Prix, beating the same Brazilian gold medal roster for three straight years. Obviously the GP doesn't carry the same prestige as the quad tourneys, but look at USA's placement in the GP since the three consecutive championships without Hooker, Tom or Harmotto. In 2013 we went 9-5 and finished 6th, and in 2014 our record was 5-4 with a 6th-place finish. (Interestingly, everyone from the World Championship roster besides Harmotto started for the USA at last year's GP). Looking at the other tournaments, we finished second at the 2013 World Grand Championship Cup, but we only played six B-teams outside of the majority of Brazil's A-team. Also, Italy, Turkey, South Korea and China did not participate in that tourney, so the pool of competition was pretty weak. The only success we've had since the forced departure of Hooker and Tom was the first-place finish at the World Championship, because Italy beat Russia in the third round so we could advance after getting swept earlier by the Italians. We finally beat the Brazilian A-squad (I don't consider last year's friendly matches with the Brazilians to hold much weight). However, I believe that if we had to play the Italians and Brazilians 5 times again, we likely wouldn't come out on top. IMO both of the results from the 2012 Olympics and 2014 World Championships were shocking. I really don't believe anyone expected an undefeated USA team to lose to Brazil in the GM match. Likewise, I don't recall too many people thinking we would finish above the Brazilians, Italians or Chinese at the World Championships, and neither did Sunderland FWIW. Our wins against Brazil and China at the WCs were our best consecutive wins since our consistent performances prior to the gold medal match against Brazil at the Olympics. These two matches in the finals at the WCs are hardly enough to get me to believe that we’re better off without Hooker or Tom. I believe this year’s Grand Prix and World Cup will be important to gauge our current roster’s consistency at winning tournaments. Besides the addition of Banwarth over Davis and Miyashiro, I don't really consider Murphy, Hill, Robinson, Hildebrand, Adams or Gibbemeyer to be upgrades since the Olympics. I'm proud of Hill getting MVP at the World Championship, but the award should have gone to Kosheleva or Zhu Ting, both of whom were more consistent and dominant throughout the tournament. Mmm I think I'd only give MVP to a player from a losing team if she was so head and shoulders better than everyone else (like Kim YK in London). Kosheleva and Zhu Ting were both brilliant but which do u pick over the other? Kosheleva was also shanking like it's going out of style, and Zhu Ting sat for a portion of the final. Kim Hill had a solid tournament and came up huge in semis and final. She passed well. I think her MVP award is well deserved.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 29, 2015 17:26:36 GMT -5
Kosheleva had 45 more kills than Hill and played 2 less matches. I’d take those 45 more kills over bad passing against USA and Italy any day. =) Also, per italy2014.fivb.org, “Hill was named the most valuable player and Second Best Outside Spiker of the tournament.” Zhu Ting was picked as the First Best Outside Spiker and lost MVP, possibly because she had a bad second set against USA in the championship match. Also, the MVP of the World Championships goes to a member of the winning squad (with one exception in 2006).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 18:59:38 GMT -5
Destinee is an unrivaled athlete. She has less than stellar form, which as others have stated, I believe makes her more injury prone. Nonetheless, she is an outstanding volleyball player.
That being said... 1) Look at any of the highlight reels for any of the tall American/Canadian (yo Pavan) players in Japan. They are all veryimpressive. 2) It's called a "highlight" reel for a reason. She has had some poorer matches that obviously wouldn't show up in these videos. There was a game between her team and Fawcett's team where Fawcett destroyed her the first two sets. 3) I really wish people would stop comparing volleyball to basketball. Lebron James and Destinee Hooker are different. Lebron James can score all by himself. Destinee Hooker can't pass/dig or set. There are two things that HAVE to happen before she can be successful practically every play. She needs others to set her up to score. Hence why Larson always talks about volleyball being the "ultimate team sport." I understand it's more complicated than that, but volleyball is a more team-oriented sport than many other sports (including basketball unless you're the Spurs maybe). So having your "star player" isn't as important IMO in volleyball, especially if her cast 1) isn't as good and 2) doesn't like her. 4) Finally, I also have a hard time believing Karch is the only one who has an issue with Destinee. There have been interviews with multiple players (including Olympic vets like Harmotto and Foluke) where all they seem to want to talk about is "team chemistry." The girls look like they enjoy playing together more now than they ever did during the Olympics. Tom always looked pissed at her teammates. Maybe all of this talk about chemistry is "Karch brainwashing" but I'm starting to believe that some of the girls had issues with Destinee and Tom. Maybe I'm wrong but there's just as much evidence supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread. Nonetheless, what you can't tell me is that chemistry isn't important in volleyball. Everyone keeps pointing to Gamova. Well, Russia has lost matches before because of her %*$#ty attitude which straight up deflated her teammates. The Nebraska '07 team was freakishly talented and chemistry got in the way. If the other players on USA don't want to play with her, than I'm sorry, putting her back on the team won't win us gold in Rio either.
Alot of this is me playing devil's advocate I suppose, but I think it's so much less black and white than people are making it out to be. I do think Hooker is immensely talented. I also think she hurts team chemistry. Ultimately, it becomes an issue of figuring out where in that grey area having her on the team lies.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jan 29, 2015 19:32:40 GMT -5
Destinee is an unrivaled athlete. She has less than stellar form, which as others have stated, I believe makes her more injury prone. Nonetheless, she is an outstanding volleyball player. That being said... 1) Look at any of the highlight reels for any of the tall American/Canadian (yo Pavan) players in Japan. They are all veryimpressive. 2) It's called a "highlight" reel for a reason. She has had some poorer matches that obviously wouldn't show up in these videos. There was a game between her team and Fawcett's team where Fawcett destroyed her the first two sets. 3) I really wish people would stop comparing volleyball to basketball. Lebron James and Destinee Hooker are different. Lebron James can score all by himself. Destinee Hooker can't pass/dig or set. There are two things that HAVE to happen before she can be successful practically every play. She needs others to set her up to score. Hence why Larson always talks about volleyball being the "ultimate team sport." I understand it's more complicated than that, but volleyball is a more team-oriented sport than many other sports (including basketball unless you're the Spurs maybe). So having your "star player" isn't as important IMO in volleyball, especially if her cast 1) isn't as good and 2) doesn't like her. 4) Finally, I also have a hard time believing Karch is the only one who has an issue with Destinee. There have been interviews with multiple players (including Olympic vets like Harmotto and Foluke) where all they seem to want to talk about is "team chemistry." The girls look like they enjoy playing together more now than they ever did during the Olympics. Tom always looked pissed at her teammates. Maybe all of this talk about chemistry is "Karch brainwashing" but I'm starting to believe that some of the girls had issues with Destinee and Tom. Maybe I'm wrong but there's just as much evidence supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread. Nonetheless, what you can't tell me is that chemistry isn't important in volleyball. Everyone keeps pointing to Gamova. Well, Russia has lost matches before because of her %*$#ty attitude which straight up deflated her teammates. The Nebraska '07 team was freakishly talented and chemistry got in the way. If the other players on USA don't want to play with her, than I'm sorry, putting her back on the team won't win us gold in Rio either. Alot of this is me playing devil's advocate I suppose, but I think it's so much less black and white than people are making it out to be. I do think Hooker is immensely talented. I also think she hurts team chemistry. Ultimately, it becomes an issue of figuring out where in that grey area having her on the team lies. But you haven't provided any evidence supporting your claim?
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 29, 2015 19:39:15 GMT -5
Destinee is an unrivaled athlete. She has less than stellar form, which as others have stated, I believe makes her more injury prone. Nonetheless, she is an outstanding volleyball player. That being said... 1) Look at any of the highlight reels for any of the tall American/Canadian (yo Pavan) players in Japan. They are all equally as impressive. 2) It's called a "highlight" reel for a reason. She has had some poorer matches that obviously wouldn't show up in these videos. There was a game between her team and Fawcett's team where Fawcett destroyed her the first two sets. 3) I really wish people would stop comparing volleyball to basketball. Lebron James and Destinee Hooker are different. Lebron James can score all by himself. Destinee Hooker can't pass/dig or set. There are two things that HAVE to happen before she can be successful practically every play. She needs others to set her up to score. Hence why Larson always talks about volleyball being the "ultimate team sport." I understand it's more complicated than that, but volleyball is a more team-oriented sport than many other sports (including basketball unless you're the Spurs maybe). So having your "star player" isn't as important IMO in volleyball, especially if her cast 1) isn't as good and 2) doesn't like her. 4) Finally, I also have a hard time believing Karch is the only one who has an issue with Destinee. There have been interviews with multiple players (including Olympic vets like Harmotto and Foluke) where all they seem to want to talk about is "team chemistry." The girls look like they enjoy playing together more now than they ever did during the Olympics. Tom always looked pissed at her teammates. Maybe all of this talk about chemistry is "Karch brainwashing" but I'm starting to believe that some of the girls had issues with Destinee and Tom. Maybe I'm wrong but there's just as much evidence supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread. Nonetheless, what you can't tell me is that chemistry isn't important in volleyball. Everyone keeps pointing to Gamova. Well, Russia has lost matches before because of her %*$#ty attitude which straight up deflated her teammates. The Nebraska '07 team was freakishly talented and chemistry got in the way. If the other players on USA don't want to play with her, than I'm sorry, putting her back on the team won't win us gold in Rio either. Alot of this is me playing devil's advocate I suppose, but I think it's so much less black and white than people are making it out to be. I do think Hooker is immensely talented. I also think she hurts team chemistry. Ultimately, it becomes an issue of figuring out where in that grey area having her on the team lies. 1. I'm not using her highlight reels as inspiration. I knew since seeing Destinee in her freshman year that she would become Brazilian-status. 2. ibid. 3. My initial comment was more interested in the rigid double standard of what's acceptable and unacceptable behavior for cocky female and male athletes. No one said Karch was brainwashing; you did. Also, Russia and Kazan play worse without Gamova. I don't know why you think they're more successful without Katya. This is why the NT coach begged her to return this past summer. You also say that players don't want them on the team. Why do you want the mediocre players calling the shots? Shouldn't the best players have a bigger say? lol jk But I'm serious, bring a healthy Destinee back! Girl had a baby and got injured in Korea. I'm sure she's a more humble teammate now if she never was one.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 29, 2015 20:08:34 GMT -5
Destinee is an unrivaled athlete. She has less than stellar form, which as others have stated, I believe makes her more injury prone. Nonetheless, she is an outstanding volleyball player. That being said... 1) Look at any of the highlight reels for any of the tall American/Canadian (yo Pavan) players in Japan. They are all veryimpressive. 2) It's called a "highlight" reel for a reason. She has had some poorer matches that obviously wouldn't show up in these videos. There was a game between her team and Fawcett's team where Fawcett destroyed her the first two sets. 3) I really wish people would stop comparing volleyball to basketball. Lebron James and Destinee Hooker are different. Lebron James can score all by himself. Destinee Hooker can't pass/dig or set. There are two things that HAVE to happen before she can be successful practically every play. She needs others to set her up to score. Hence why Larson always talks about volleyball being the "ultimate team sport." I understand it's more complicated than that, but volleyball is a more team-oriented sport than many other sports (including basketball unless you're the Spurs maybe). So having your "star player" isn't as important IMO in volleyball, especially if her cast 1) isn't as good and 2) doesn't like her. 4) Finally, I also have a hard time believing Karch is the only one who has an issue with Destinee. There have been interviews with multiple players (including Olympic vets like Harmotto and Foluke) where all they seem to want to talk about is "team chemistry." The girls look like they enjoy playing together more now than they ever did during the Olympics. Tom always looked pissed at her teammates. Maybe all of this talk about chemistry is "Karch brainwashing" but I'm starting to believe that some of the girls had issues with Destinee and Tom. Maybe I'm wrong but there's just as much evidence supporting my claims as the majority of ones made in this thread. Nonetheless, what you can't tell me is that chemistry isn't important in volleyball. Everyone keeps pointing to Gamova. Well, Russia has lost matches before because of her %*$#ty attitude which straight up deflated her teammates. The Nebraska '07 team was freakishly talented and chemistry got in the way. If the other players on USA don't want to play with her, than I'm sorry, putting her back on the team won't win us gold in Rio either. Alot of this is me playing devil's advocate I suppose, but I think it's so much less black and white than people are making it out to be. I do think Hooker is immensely talented. I also think she hurts team chemistry. Ultimately, it becomes an issue of figuring out where in that grey area having her on the team lies. Of course there are inter-personal conflicts going on all the way around, which is why a great deal of the conversation about the Women's NT is actually being conducted in code. If Kobe Bryant called out his teammates because they stunk up the place in the NBA final, he's considered competitive and a leader. If Logan Tom does, some of her teammates cry and she's considered disruptive and bad for team chemistry. Ideally, a coach finds a way to manage personalities (and talent) in a way that maintains each person's essential character by maximizing individual strengths and balancing or tempering their weaknesses. That obviously requires a lot of skill and experience. It is a far easier proposition to establish a norm or "culture" (always a code word), which may or not actually be arbitrary, and to proceed in that fashion. Homogeneity almost inherently encourages unity and cooperation. The danger is not in the immediate short term. The danger lies in that there is nothing enduring about this particular culture because the players have been selected for their attitude--towards a coach and against a portion of their teammates.
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Post by midnightblue on Jan 29, 2015 20:20:06 GMT -5
Let's not compare Tom and Hooker. Two totally different cases, IMO. Tom has insanely high standards for not only herself, but the people she plays with. If I were sharing a court with Logan Tom, I'd take that as a huge compliment.. some see it otherwise.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 29, 2015 20:24:16 GMT -5
Let's not compare Tom and Hooker. Two totally different cases, IMO. Tom has insanely high standards for not only herself, but the people she plays with. If I were sharing a court with Logan Tom, I'd take that as a huge compliment.. some see it otherwise. It's not a comparison of the two. They are both caught in the same net.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 29, 2015 20:28:01 GMT -5
If Kobe Bryant called out his teammates because they stunk up the place in the NBA final, he's considered competitive and a leader. If Logan Tom does, some of her teammates cry and she's considered disruptive and bad for team chemistry. Ideally, a coach finds a way to manage personalities (and talent) in a way that maintains each person's essential character by maximizing individual strengths and balancing or tempering their weaknesses. That obviously requires a lot of skill and experience. Does Karch have this kind of experience to work with Hooker and Tom? And very well stated about Kobe and Logan.
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Post by ballervolley on Jan 29, 2015 20:31:23 GMT -5
well before her injury someone mentioned on here that she was put back on the national team roster right? OR was she always listed on there and never removed? IF she was placed back on the roster then something positive must have happened between her and karch/usa volleyball, right?
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Jan 29, 2015 20:33:14 GMT -5
If Kobe Bryant called out his teammates because they stunk up the place in the NBA final, he's considered competitive and a leader. If Logan Tom does, some of her teammates cry and she's considered disruptive and bad for team chemistry. Ideally, a coach finds a way to manage personalities (and talent) in a way that maintains each person's essential character by maximizing individual strengths and balancing or tempering their weaknesses. That obviously requires a lot of skill and experience. Does Karch have this kind of experience to work with Hooker and Tom? And very well stated about Kobe and Logan. Kobe is an egomaniac who has driven off every elite teammate he's ever had, and who no other star is interested in coming to L.A. to play with. Not a comparison I would use as a positive. Maybe LeBron (who, for all the stuff he takes, has always been a team-first guy) or CP3 would be a better fit.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Jan 29, 2015 20:34:12 GMT -5
Let's not compare Tom and Hooker. Two totally different cases, IMO. Tom has insanely high standards for not only herself, but the people she plays with. If I were sharing a court with Logan Tom, I'd take that as a huge compliment.. some see it otherwise. I'd take it as a compliment, but I would also get annoyed pretty quickly. I know its not the case, but she comes off very "cocky" when I know its just her wanting everyone to play their best. Its like that group member who tries to be the leader, and will rub people the wrong with the things they do and say.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 29, 2015 20:41:22 GMT -5
Does Karch have this kind of experience to work with Hooker and Tom? And very well stated about Kobe and Logan. Kobe is an egomaniac who has driven off every elite teammate he's ever had, and who no other star is interested in coming to L.A. to play with. Not a comparison I would use as a positive. Maybe LeBron (who, for all the stuff he takes, has always been a team-first guy) or CP3 would be a better fit. I accept your friendly amendment and call for the question.
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Post by midnightblue on Jan 29, 2015 20:58:12 GMT -5
Let's not compare Tom and Hooker. Two totally different cases, IMO. Tom has insanely high standards for not only herself, but the people she plays with. If I were sharing a court with Logan Tom, I'd take that as a huge compliment.. some see it otherwise. I'd take it as a compliment, but I would also get annoyed pretty quickly. I know its not the case, but she comes off very "cocky" when I know its just her wanting everyone to play their best. Its like that group member who tries to be the leader, and will rub people the wrong with the things they do and say. There are many words to describe Logan. "Cocky" is not, nor has ever been one of them. She takes her JOB VERY, VERY, x infinity, seriously. Does she know that she's incredible at what she does? Absolutely. That's not cockiness. Is she an 'easy' teammate to play with? Surely not, and she would be the first person to tell you that. But, for everything you see on a broadcast, there is much more you don't see. She's a human being, and yes she has an edge. It's never been 'easy' for Logan, despite it seeming otherwise. She's had her fair share of personal struggles and failures and triumphs. When she gets on the court, no matter how old, at her prime or not, she expects to play the sport at the highest level. She gets frustrated, she has NO patience, but it's never personal with her.
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Post by kro2488 on Jan 29, 2015 21:34:30 GMT -5
I get that these boards are places for people to vent but this is getting old, you see some reference to all of this conversation in many, many threads. No matter what happens i'll be glad when Rio gets here and enjoy it, then be happy its over. Trust the coaching staff, trust usa volleyball, and trust the players we field out there to give it their all. Quit whining about things we cannot control as mere fans. Who knows what will happen? And if we do not do as well as people hope, you cannot say having different players would have definitely provided a more positive outcome because you cannot go back and get a re-do. If that happens I foresee that's all people will gripe about on here over and over.
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