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Post by braveheart on Feb 23, 2015 15:25:07 GMT -5
I'm still waiting to hear how JMac or Shoji are better at developing players. Look up the definition of "develop" and JMac has done more than any other perennial top 10 coach. If this were a topic of who recruits the highest level players to their school, then Rose/Dunning/Cook is obvious. The list of players at Washington that were not heralded and ended up being big time is just as big as the list of big time recruits that Cook has brought in year after year.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2015 20:43:09 GMT -5
I'm still waiting to hear how JMac or Shoji are better at developing players. Look up the definition of "develop" and JMac has done more than any other perennial top 10 coach. If this were a topic of who recruits the highest level players to their school, then Rose/Dunning/Cook is obvious. The list of players at Washington that were not heralded and ended up being big time is just as big as the list of big time recruits that Cook has brought in year after year. I'm not saying you're wrong, but your argument would be much stronger if you actually provided said list?
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Post by wonderwarthog79 on Feb 24, 2015 2:01:07 GMT -5
This is a frustrating thread. Frustrating because I love the topic, but find it very difficult to discuss. The posters don't really say anything except "I really like coach ...." I'll give you an example: Dunning was known early on as a very good setting coach, but I have no idea whether this is still the case. I suspect all coaches have certain development strengths and weaknesses, but I have no idea what they are.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Feb 24, 2015 2:19:30 GMT -5
I'm still waiting to hear how JMac or Shoji are better at developing players. Look up the definition of "develop" and JMac has done more than any other perennial top 10 coach. If this were a topic of who recruits the highest level players to their school, then Rose/Dunning/Cook is obvious. The list of players at Washington that were not heralded and ended up being big time is just as big as the list of big time recruits that Cook has brought in year after year. I would not say Jmac has done more. In terms of making a program from awful to great, than yes. But Jmac still gets pretty god darn recruits. Jmac is in my top four, but Russ, and shoji are better than him IMO. But Jmac will do wonders at notre dame and will get top recruits. More so than he did at washington. It will take some time, but give him 2-4 years and I expect notre dame to become a powerhouse. The man can coach
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 16:32:17 GMT -5
Look up the definition of "develop" and JMac has done more than any other perennial top 10 coach. If this were a topic of who recruits the highest level players to their school, then Rose/Dunning/Cook is obvious. The list of players at Washington that were not heralded and ended up being big time is just as big as the list of big time recruits that Cook has brought in year after year. I would not say Jmac has done more. In terms of making a program from awful to great, than yes. But Jmac still gets pretty god darn recruits. Jmac is in my top four, but Russ, and shoji are better than him IMO. But Jmac will do wonders at notre dame and will get top recruits. More so than he did at washington. It will take some time, but give him 2-4 years and I expect notre dame to become a powerhouse. The man can coach 2-4 years is incredibly optimistic, and, I believe, unrealistic. Notre Dame is nothing like Wisconsin or the situation that Sheffield walked into: a roster full of top-50 recruits, including the best setter to come out of high school ever, B1G appeal, the best college town atmosphere (South Bend is nice, but it's no Madison), etc. The success there in 2013 was the exception, not the rule, and I'm sure McLaughlin knows that. I think 5-6 years is more realistic. McLaughlin's biggest hurdle will be recruiting. He rarely came to the Midwest while at Washington to scout talent because he just couldn't out-recruit the B1G or the B12, but recruited the hell out of California. He doesn't know the current Midwest landscape of volleyball talent, he likes GM2 clubs and kids, of which the Midwest has very few, Midwest kids don't know who he is or what he's done, doesn't have relationships with clubs yet, etc. I think Jenna Hagglund was the last Midwest kid he got, and she was the only one while she was there. He may have to rely on being a great trainer and developer for a while if recruiting takes a while to get going. He couldn't be in a better location, however.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 24, 2015 16:54:43 GMT -5
It's not the same situation as Wisconsin also because it's not the Big Ten. He's just a good foreigner(he did bring the Italian asst.....) or a couple of transfers away from being very competitive within the ACC in a couple of years-upward mobility is a lot easier there.
Notre Dame's record was also worse than their talent. There's a solid setter on the roster and some ball control. JMac can work with that, at least enough to build a "resurgence" narrative he can recruit some studs around (it is ND, after all).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 17:30:14 GMT -5
It's not the same situation as Wisconsin also because it's not the Big Ten. He's just a good foreigner(he did bring the Italian asst.....) or a couple of transfers away from being very competitive within the ACC in a couple of years-upward mobility is a lot easier there. Notre Dame's record was also worse than their talent. There's a solid setter on the roster and some ball control. JMac can work with that, at least enough to build a "resurgence" narrative he can recruit some studs around (it is ND, after all). I'm aware that Notre Dame isn't the Big Ten. The comment I made was in reference to the idea that coaches can just walk into programs these days and immediately change them for the better, a la Wisconsin. I don't think McLaughlin will be able to walk into Notre Dame and immediately make it a competitive program in 2-4 years not knowing the recruiting landscape, not having relationships with coaches in the area, not having a great college town/great conference to draw recruits to, accepting the fact that he's relatively unknown to the top 2016-2019 kids in Indiana/Ohio/Illinois/Michigan/Wisconsin, etc. It isn't like Bond moving from Marquette to Iowa, or Sheffield from Dayton to Wisconsin, or Aird from PSU to Maryland. I just think think that expecting something significant in 2-4 years is unrealistic. I think depending on transfers and international athletes to show up and contribute immediately is unrealistic. I think the transition from the west coast to the midwest will be very difficult to hurdle, in many ways. I'm expecting baby steps. I think the potential for Notre Dame to become a top program by 2020 is undeniable, but sooner than that seems too optimistic.
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Post by nativevolley on Feb 24, 2015 22:48:24 GMT -5
I would not say Jmac has done more. In terms of making a program from awful to great, than yes. But Jmac still gets pretty god darn recruits. Jmac is in my top four, but Russ, and shoji are better than him IMO. But Jmac will do wonders at notre dame and will get top recruits. More so than he did at washington. It will take some time, but give him 2-4 years and I expect notre dame to become a powerhouse. The man can coach 2-4 years is incredibly optimistic, and, I believe, unrealistic. Notre Dame is nothing like Wisconsin or the situation that Sheffield walked into: a roster full of top-50 recruits, including the best setter to come out of high school ever, B1G appeal, the best college town atmosphere (South Bend is nice, but it's no Madison), etc. The success there in 2013 was the exception, not the rule, and I'm sure McLaughlin knows that. I think 5-6 years is more realistic. McLaughlin's biggest hurdle will be recruiting. He rarely came to the Midwest while at Washington to scout talent because he just couldn't out-recruit the B1G or the B12, but recruited the hell out of California. He doesn't know the current Midwest landscape of volleyball talent, he likes GM2 clubs and kids, of which the Midwest has very few, Midwest kids don't know who he is or what he's done, doesn't have relationships with clubs yet, etc. I think Jenna Hagglund was the last Midwest kid he got, and she was the only one while she was there. He may have to rely on being a great trainer and developer for a while if recruiting takes a while to get going. He couldn't be in a better location, however. I find this hard to believe because the volleyball community in general is pretty small. Believe it or not. I'm sure club directors know of him, and would gladly work with him for potential recruits. For pete sakes he took Washington to the Final Four the year before and this past year made it to the regional semifinal. Who wouldn't know of Jmacdizzle...
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Post by InTheKnow on Feb 25, 2015 12:05:38 GMT -5
2 of the best in the nation: Tom Hilbert Travis Hudson.
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Post by d3coach on Feb 25, 2015 20:32:22 GMT -5
2-4 years is incredibly optimistic, and, I believe, unrealistic. Notre Dame is nothing like Wisconsin or the situation that Sheffield walked into: a roster full of top-50 recruits, including the best setter to come out of high school ever, B1G appeal, the best college town atmosphere (South Bend is nice, but it's no Madison), etc. The success there in 2013 was the exception, not the rule, and I'm sure McLaughlin knows that. I think 5-6 years is more realistic. McLaughlin's biggest hurdle will be recruiting. He rarely came to the Midwest while at Washington to scout talent because he just couldn't out-recruit the B1G or the B12, but recruited the hell out of California. He doesn't know the current Midwest landscape of volleyball talent, he likes GM2 clubs and kids, of which the Midwest has very few, Midwest kids don't know who he is or what he's done, doesn't have relationships with clubs yet, etc. I think Jenna Hagglund was the last Midwest kid he got, and she was the only one while she was there. He may have to rely on being a great trainer and developer for a while if recruiting takes a while to get going. He couldn't be in a better location, however. I find this hard to believe because the volleyball community in general is pretty small. Believe it or not. I'm sure club directors know of him, and would gladly work with him for potential recruits. For pete sakes he took Washington to the Final Four the year before and this past year made it to the regional semifinal. Who wouldn't know of Jmacdizzle... Agreed. I would bet borderline top 20 in 2-3 years, maybe a sweet 16 run, and top 10 pushing for a final four or better in 4-5. Getting to a final four in 3 years would be a pretty ridiculous accomoplishment and would take a little luck. He's going to be competitive right away because he can train. There will probably be a few kids that end up "surprising" people as a result. Add in a few good recruits, and a culture change and they will be able to compete with everyone outside of the elite, and by NCAA time maybe come away with an upset in year two. For what it's worth, I would say the same about other top coaches as well. I don't think recruiting base will be much of an issue. All a kid/parent has to do is read a quick summary of what he's done and they will get the picture. It's not like they haven't heard of him OR the school.
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Post by Wahinevball1234 on Feb 25, 2015 21:03:01 GMT -5
I am sorry but how is this even a question... Shoji is by far the best at developing talent. Recruiting that is a different story but solely developing talent is Shoji. I mean look at Hartong. She was a decent get at middle but nothing like some of her competitors. Dave Shoji made her into an AA OH! Brittany Hewitt obviously was another great example. Also, how about Ali Longo! I mean she was a decent libero at Penn State. Nothing like Alyssa Derrico the year before. But when she came to Hawaii she suddenly became one of the top liberos in the country. Personally, I thought she was the second best libero under Hagglund. IMO it is not even a question who is the best at developing talent.
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Post by akbar on Feb 25, 2015 22:30:25 GMT -5
I am sorry but how is this even a question... Shoji is by far the best at developing talent. Recruiting that is a different story but solely developing talent is Shoji. I mean look at Hartong. She was a decent get at middle but nothing like some of her competitors. Dave Shoji made her into an AA OH! Brittany Hewitt obviously was another great example. Also, how about Ali Longo! I mean she was a decent libero at Penn State. Nothing like Alyssa Derrico the year before. But when she came to Hawaii she suddenly became one of the top liberos in the country. Personally, I thought she was the second best libero under Hagglund. IMO it is not even a question who is the best at developing talent. Should have stopped half way through.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 26, 2015 17:14:33 GMT -5
I also think based on some folks definition, the coaches who are getting the most talent are somehow ineligible to be considered the best at developing players.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Feb 26, 2015 17:23:34 GMT -5
I also think based on some folks definition, the coaches who are getting the most talent are somehow ineligible to be considered the best at developing players. Some of said coaches get top notch talent (won't name names, it's not cook btw) and under a lot of other coaches, would be legit AA, but they don't flourish. So while It doesn't discount them, it does make it harder. But people like rose are brilliant at developing talent.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Feb 26, 2015 17:41:28 GMT -5
I also think based on some folks definition, the coaches who are getting the most talent are somehow ineligible to be considered the best at developing players. Some of said coaches get top notch talent (won't name names, it's not cook btw) and under a lot of other coaches, would be legit AA, but they don't flourish. So while It doesn't discount them, it does make it harder. But people like rose are brilliant at developing talent. I think if you asked lots of folks who know, you would consistently here, Shoji, Jmac, Cook, Rose, but also people like Skinner, Shondell, Sheffield as well as several mid-major coaches. For example Is anyone doing a better job than the guy at Western Kentucky?
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