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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:12:35 GMT -5
Did you read his quotes where he admitted to sexual relations with three teenage players? There are no direct quotes from Butler in document. Just the summary of usa volleyball findings. So what's your stance? Do you support him? Do you think he ever did anything with any players? Do you think it should be forgotten because it was two decades ago?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:14:49 GMT -5
There are no direct quotes from Butler in document. Just the summary of usa volleyball findings. It is NOT a summary. It is the judgement of the case WRITTEN BY one of the JUDGES. And, if you care, she is a SUPREME court judge, not some flunky. Those are her words based on the evidence presented. It is not some BS website, it is official Illinois court page. I do not know what your game is trying to act stupid, but now that three people have told you AND have provided DIRECT quotes from the JUDGE so you can read the summary without have to read all those words (go back to page one of the thread), your silly questions are answered. I think the world is ending, hell has frozen over, or gays must now be able to marry because we actually agree on something!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:17:51 GMT -5
Almost 3 decades, fwiw. And this comes down to whether he is repentant, has proven himself to be repentant, and how much you are willing to forgive.
I won't bore you with my personal opinion, but I do think that's what it comes down to. People aren't going to agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:23:56 GMT -5
There are no direct quotes from Butler in document. Just the summary of usa volleyball findings. It is NOT a summary. It is the judgement of the case WRITTEN BY one of the JUDGES. And, if you care, she is a SUPREME court judge, not some flunky. Those are her words based on the evidence presented. It is not some BS website, it is official Illinois court page. I do not know what your game is trying to act stupid, but now that three people have told you AND have provided DIRECT quotes from the JUDGE so you can read the summary without have to read all those words (go back to page one of the thread), your silly questions are answered. But wouldn't the Judge be looking at only the due process. She is not ruling on if USA Volleyball was right or wrong. People on here were saying he admitted to charges. I guess my parents taught me to ask questions not follow blindly. You think the Great Lakes Region has documentation of hearing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:26:05 GMT -5
There are no direct quotes from Butler in document. Just the summary of usa volleyball findings. So what's your stance? Do you support him? Do you think he ever did anything with any players? Do you think it should be forgotten because it was two decades ago? Maybe you should make it a poll thread. My opinions don't matter. Just the truth either way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:30:35 GMT -5
It is NOT a summary. It is the judgement of the case WRITTEN BY one of the JUDGES. And, if you care, she is a SUPREME court judge, not some flunky. Those are her words based on the evidence presented. It is not some BS website, it is official Illinois court page. I do not know what your game is trying to act stupid, but now that three people have told you AND have provided DIRECT quotes from the JUDGE so you can read the summary without have to read all those words (go back to page one of the thread), your silly questions are answered. People on here were saying he admitted to charges. That's because he admitted to having a relationship with at least three teenagers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:41:01 GMT -5
It is NOT a summary. It is the judgement of the case WRITTEN BY one of the JUDGES. And, if you care, she is a SUPREME court judge, not some flunky. Those are her words based on the evidence presented. It is not some BS website, it is official Illinois court page. I do not know what your game is trying to act stupid, but now that three people have told you AND have provided DIRECT quotes from the JUDGE so you can read the summary without have to read all those words (go back to page one of the thread), your silly questions are answered. I think the world is ending, hell has frozen over, and gays must now be able to marry because we actually agree on something!! Scary. Here is the summary of my thoughts after reading all of this (almost like the USA Swimming scandals). 1. It is disgusting, despicable (and now criminal) when a mid thirties man with complete power over teenage girls HABITUALLY uses that power to sleep with them. 2. Actually, any man that is 34 and wants to have sex with teenage girls is sick and usually a sign of someone that has significant relationship/esteem problems. Remember the losers that came back to hit on high school girls when they were in their 20s because women their age thought they were LOSERS? Imagine what a complete loser a 35 year must be to prey on teenagers. 3. USA Volleyball banning someone from coaching for these acts but then allowing him to be a chaperone and turning a blind eye that he was actually coaching is an embarrassment to the organization and should be printed in their board room so they all can be ashamed of their predecessors' actions and ensure no one ever repeats them. Their actions actually endorsed what he did and make others think it was not that bad since USAV allowed him to continue coaching from the bench "as a chaperone".. The irony of letting someone CHAPERONE young girls after you banned him for having SEX with young girls??? (shakespeare could not make stuff like this up). 4. Rick Butler has never issued a formal apology and begged for forgiveness and shows no remorse for HIS actions. The only remorse I see in any of his quotes is that he cannot force everyone to ignore what happened. Must frustrate some inadequate man that he cannot push the world around in the same way he liked to push 16 year girls around. 5. Some people seem to think it is fine because many of the characteristics of a sexual predator also are the traits that can make a good coach. That is scary in itself and something to think about. Control can get out of hand. Does someone get off on controlling so many aspects of others' lives and making up for their own inadequacies through that power? How far should this control go before it is questioned and should cause concern? Does any one know (for a fact) all of the "rules" and requirements of the players on a top SP team? It would be interesting to know.
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Post by truthandjustice on Jul 25, 2015 23:46:23 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:50:45 GMT -5
I think the world is ending, hell has frozen over, and gays must now be able to marry because we actually agree on something!! Scary. Here is the summary of my thoughts after reading all of this (almost like the USA Swimming scandals). 1. It is disgusting, despicable (and now criminal) when a mid thirties man with complete power over teenage girls HABITUALLY uses that power to sleep with them. 2. Actually, any man that is 34 and wants to have sex with teenage girls is sick and usually a sign of someone that has significant relationship/esteem problems. Remember the losers that came back to hit on high school girls when they were in their 20s because women their age thought they were LOSERS? Imagine what a complete loser a 35 year must be to prey on teenagers. 3. USA Volleyball banning someone from coaching for these acts but then allowing him to be a chaperone and turning a blind eye that he was actually coaching is an embarrassment to the organization and should be printed in their board room so they all can be ashamed of their predecessors' actions and ensure no one ever repeats them. Their actions actually endorsed what he did and make others think it was not that bad since USAV allowed him to continue coaching from the bench "as a chaperone".. The irony of letting someone CHAPERONE young girls after you banned him for having SEX with young girls??? (shakespeare could not make stuff like this up). 4. Rick Butler has never issued a formal apology and begged for forgiveness and shows no remorse for HIS actions. The only remorse I see in any of his quotes is that he cannot force everyone to ignore what happened. Must frustrate some inadequate man that he cannot push the world around in the same way he liked to push 16 year girls around. 5. Some people seem to think it is fine because many of the characteristics of a sexual predator also are the traits that can make a good coach. That is scary in itself and something to think about. Control can get out of hand. Does someone get off on controlling so many aspects of others' lives and making up for their own inadequacies through that power? How far should this control go before it is questioned and should cause concern? Does any one know (for a fact) all of the "rules" and requirements of the players on a top SP team? It would be interesting to know. My guess is a good volleyball athlete.
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 25, 2015 23:54:08 GMT -5
So I quickly read this. This has to do with an appeal on the expulsion from usa volleyball. Correct? There is no testimony. Correct? USA Volleyball was legal authority not our state or federal court system. Correct? This has nothing to do with actual hearing conducted by USA volleyball just the appeal on expulsion and due process. Correct? They are not looking at case but due process. Correct? I'm dumb according to alarmclock... Educate me or us. It's true that this appellate court ruling does not specifically address the evidence against Butler or the issue of his guilt or innocence. The decision points out that "The [trial] court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct. Instead, the court found that section 9.04 of the USA Volleyball bylaws presented an "impermissibly vague" standard for expelling a member." The appellate court then proceeded to rule against Butler, and overturned the trial court's decision to grant the injunction. In doing so, the court noted that Butler had been given the opportunity to present his case at two different hearing with the benefit of counsel. Of interest is that Butler did not challenge the actual findings, evidence or conclusions of USA volleyball. Instead, Butler challenged USAV's ability to enforce its decision to expel him based on substantive and procedural grounds. One very good reason for that is that a trial on the issues in question could require testimony about the relationships under oath (which he had already avoided due to the statute of limitations having run out). He chose the least risky strategy, which included admitting that he had relationships but insisted they were consensual and legal, knowing that those questions would never be heard in a criminal court. So, perhaps you are [technically] correct, but you're also being sly. It seems fairly obvious to me that you understood the legal strategy employed by Butler even though you are pretending to not really understand what the ruling is about.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:59:29 GMT -5
So I quickly read this. This has to do with an appeal on the expulsion from usa volleyball. Correct? There is no testimony. Correct? USA Volleyball was legal authority not our state or federal court system. Correct? This has nothing to do with actual hearing conducted by USA volleyball just the appeal on expulsion and due process. Correct? They are not looking at case but due process. Correct? I'm dumb according to alarmclock... Educate me or us. It's true that this appellate court ruling does not specifically address the evidence against Butler or the issue of his guilt or innocence. The decision points out that "The [trial] court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct. Instead, the court found that section 9.04 of the USA Volleyball bylaws presented an "impermissibly vague" standard for expelling a member." The appellate court then proceeded to rule against Butler, and overturned the trial court's decision to grant the injunction. In doing so, the court noted that Butler had been given the opportunity to present his case at two different hearing with the benefit of counsel. Of interest is that Butler did not challenge the actual findings, evidence or conclusions of USA volleyball. Instead, Butler challenged USAV's ability to enforce its decision to expel him based on substantive and procedural grounds. One very good reason for that is that a trial on the issues in question could require testimony about the relationships under oath (which he had already avoided due to the statute of limitations having run out). He chose the least risky strategy, which included admitting that he had relationships but insisted they were consensual and legal, knowing that those questions would never be heard in a criminal court. So, perhaps you are [technically] correct, but you're also being sly. It seems fairly obvious to me that you understood the legal strategy employed by Butler even though you are pretending to not really understand what the ruling is about. Good explanation. I did not have any preexisting knowledge. Should have gone into law.
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 26, 2015 0:08:02 GMT -5
It's true that this appellate court ruling does not specifically address the evidence against Butler or the issue of his guilt or innocence. The decision points out that "The [trial] court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct. Instead, the court found that section 9.04 of the USA Volleyball bylaws presented an "impermissibly vague" standard for expelling a member." The appellate court then proceeded to rule against Butler, and overturned the trial court's decision to grant the injunction. In doing so, the court noted that Butler had been given the opportunity to present his case at two different hearing with the benefit of counsel. Of interest is that Butler did not challenge the actual findings, evidence or conclusions of USA volleyball. Instead, Butler challenged USAV's ability to enforce its decision to expel him based on substantive and procedural grounds. One very good reason for that is that a trial on the issues in question could require testimony about the relationships under oath (which he had already avoided due to the statute of limitations having run out). He chose the least risky strategy, which included admitting that he had relationships but insisted they were consensual and legal, knowing that those questions would never be heard in a criminal court. So, perhaps you are [technically] correct, but you're also being sly. It seems fairly obvious to me that you understood the legal strategy employed by Butler even though you are pretending to not really understand what the ruling is about. Good explanation. I did not have any preexisting knowledge. Should have gone into law. Good luck with that. They do background and character checks for persons going into law.
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Post by vbnerd on Jul 26, 2015 1:26:44 GMT -5
That's because he admitted to having a relationship with at least three teenagers. Did you read his quotes where he admitted to sexual relations with three teenage players? I read everything I posted the links for and he admitted to relationships with consenting adults who used to play for him. Now yes, 19 is a teenager, but your are intentionally wording this to suggest he has admitted what he is accused of, and he hasn't- at least not that I have seen. This is not intended as a defense of Butler's alleged actions as much as I'm trying to offer context that is needed for this conversation. R Kelly had sex with an underage girl, Kobe Bryant raped a woman, and Ben Roethlisberger has raped a few, who all continued their way of life without nearly enough outrage. Guilty or not, Rick Butler is better at what he does certainly than R Kelly or Roethlisberger are at what they do. Their standing doesn't make the alleged actions "right" by any means but lets not pretend this is in any way unique. This is not a volleyball community problem, this is an everybody problem. And over 90% of rapes go unreported, with 1/4 of all women being the victim of a sexual assault attempt by the age of 25. Our daughters are encountering sexual predators every day. This one happens to wear the proverbial scarlet letter, which in defense of the parents who continue to entrust their kids to him, could arguably make him less of a threat than almost anyone else their girls will encounter in a given day. Not everyone HAS to look at this situation like the most outraged members of this thread are suggesting they should. They almost certainly are not.
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Post by VBCOACH on Jul 26, 2015 5:43:51 GMT -5
BTW, after the charges against Rick first came out, he has not been accused of additional misconduct. Did you know that, at the time, the father of one of his players told Rick that if he ever molested any of his players again, he would hire someone to kill him?
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Post by zenyada on Jul 26, 2015 8:34:25 GMT -5
Almost 3 decades, fwiw. And this comes down to whether he is repentant, has proven himself to be repentant, and how much you are willing to forgive. I won't bore you with my personal opinion, but I do think that's what it comes down to. People aren't going to agree. Well said. And so yes personal opinions on Butler are boring. What I find interesting (in a it never ceases to amaze me how stupid and desparate people can be way) is that after these facts emerge, so many parents were willing to look the other way and this guy builds a thriving business. It was the 90's, but I just don't remember it ever being ok for coaches to bang girls on their teams. What parent takes that risk? Today with social media and the well funded thought police this guy would be vilified beyond recovery in the same business. So as a society have we taken a step forward in our ability to cleanse these areas from creeps and predators (the AAU obviously a decade behind enforcing background checks), or a step backward in our ability to allow a second chance? As a condition, I would describe the pattern of a 30 year old pursuing the position of coach to place himself amongst girls for the purpose of sexual opportunities as sociopathic behavior, and as a sexual predator, not rehabable. Sandusky was married it means nothing.
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