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Post by Fight On! on Dec 6, 2017 11:11:18 GMT -5
“Science” would also give her an X and a Y chromosome making her a male. If you need a place to spew transphobic ignorance, take it to Off The Net. Furthermore, this is all covered in other threads.
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Post by kolohekeiki on Dec 6, 2017 11:15:55 GMT -5
You can obviously tell the difference in her built compared to the rest of the women on her team
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 6, 2017 11:24:44 GMT -5
You can obviously tell the difference in her built compared to the rest of the women on her team The same can be said of many women’s differing body types. The poster who described her actual performance on the court, minus the assumptions of what she could do, is on the right track to me. If I could read Italian I would try to post her stats for the previous season compared to soms others. In the final match of the season I noticed the opponent had a player who scored more points and hit for a higher percentage.
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Post by ned3vball on Dec 6, 2017 13:30:17 GMT -5
So it's not OK to take performance enhancing drugs so you can compete at a higher level, but it is OK, to take performance reducing drugs so you can compete at a lower level?
It is just fun and games until it has an impact on who wins and who loses. People are definitely sensitive about winning and losing.
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Post by oldman on Dec 6, 2017 13:42:44 GMT -5
This is interesting because when males start to take female hormones their muscles will deteriorate to that of the biological female body. Having the abilities she had before surgery and hormone intake will be difficult. So if she has already completely transitioned, I feel that she has the abilities that her intended female body should have had and it is completely fair. Yes. This agrees with the science behind the issue. Show me the science. Interpreting Laboratory Results in Transgender Patients on Hormone Therapy. Results Hemoglobin, hematocrit, and low-density lipoprotein resembled female values (P < .005), while alkaline phosphatase, potassium, and creatinine resembled male values (P < .05). Triglycerides were higher (P < .005) than either the male or female groups. The remainder of the measurands showed no differences. Creatinine is a chemical waste product in the blood that passes through the kidneys to be filtered and eliminated in urine. The chemical waste is a by-product of normal muscle function So not a clear cut difference. This suggests transgenders muscle metabolism is closer to males than females.
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Post by volleyball303 on Dec 6, 2017 15:03:06 GMT -5
Yes. This agrees with the science behind the issue. Show me the science. Interpreting Laboratory Results in Transgender Patients on Hormone Therapy. Results Hemoglobin, hematocrit, and low-density lipoprotein resembled female values (P < .005), while alkaline phosphatase, potassium, and creatinine resembled male values (P < .05). Triglycerides were higher (P < .005) than either the male or female groups. The remainder of the measurands showed no differences. Creatinine is a chemical waste product in the blood that passes through the kidneys to be filtered and eliminated in urine. The chemical waste is a by-product of normal muscle function So not a clear cut difference. This suggests transgenders muscle metabolism is closer to males than females. Come on man. There is not place for facts in this argument. Feelings only...
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Post by Fight On! on Dec 6, 2017 15:13:57 GMT -5
Yes. This agrees with the science behind the issue. Show me the science. Interpreting Laboratory Results in Transgender Patients on Hormone Therapy. Results Hemoglobin, hematocrit, and low-density lipoprotein resembled female values (P < .005), while alkaline phosphatase, potassium, and creatinine resembled male values (P < .05). Triglycerides were higher (P < .005) than either the male or female groups. The remainder of the measurands showed no differences. Creatinine is a chemical waste product in the blood that passes through the kidneys to be filtered and eliminated in urine. The chemical waste is a by-product of normal muscle function So not a clear cut difference. This suggests transgenders muscle metabolism is closer to males than females. "Research into the advantage that transgender women possess in athletics is sparse. Gooren and Bunck (6) measured testosterone and hemoglobin levels in transgender women within a year of SRS and reported the levels of testosterone and hemoglobin are within the female range in transgender women. Low testosterone levels in a male-to-female (MTF) transgender person undergoing HRT also have been reported in other studies (7,14,15). For example, T’Sjoen et al. (14), in a cross-sectional study with 50 individuals who made the transition from MTF with SRS, assessed the antiandrogen hormone therapy supplied to MTF individuals and reported a loss of muscle mass, an
increase in fat mass, and a decrease in bone mineral density. Significant changes in the MTF transgender are apparent in the first phase of HRT (from month 6 to month 12). Such findings provide some support for the recent recommendations by the IOC to allow transgender women to compete assuming that ‘‘normalizing’’ the levels of these hormones removes the vast majority of the advantage of having been male. Unfortunately, none of these studies assess performance, and therefore this important assumption could not be verified directly. In the only study to assess performance in athletes who have transitioned from MTF, Harper (8) compared race times in eight nonelite MTF transgender runners who had competed in distance races in both genders and found that their age-graded and gender-graded performances had not changed once their bodies had adjusted to the transition." "Given the paucity of relevant research and the likely impact of decisions relating to transgender and intersex athletes, there is now an urgent need to determine not only what physical advantages transgender women carry after HRT but also what effect these advantages may have on transgender women competing against cisgender women in a variety of different sports." Maybe instead of basing opinions on whether she *might* have an unfair advantage, for which there is no support in the literature, we compare her actual performance with other high-level women players. If she does consistently out-perform them, then what is the issue?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 15:50:10 GMT -5
There were a lot of controversy and complaining after Tiffany`s debut. Her team was loosing and she came off the bench and turned the game around and her team won. But after the game the opponent`s players were saying they had never played before with someone strong as Tiffany, they all felt they were playing against a man and not a woman.
But at the same time, she was playing in the 2nd division where the level is lower, some of those girls probably have never played against Top players. Now playing in Brazil she will up against top players and we will see how that goes.
For example I read on the Penn State blog when the girls went to Brazil and when they played against the Brazilian Junior NT, they mentioned they had not see yet girls hitting that hard before. Let`s say if some college girls were to play against Zhu, Boskovic, Egonu ( which happens to be at the same age) they would all be a little terrified with the height and power they can hit.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 15:51:30 GMT -5
here`s a video of Tiffany when she played in the Belgium men`s League a few years ago, but she was still "Rodrigo Para".
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Post by Murina on Dec 6, 2017 16:25:51 GMT -5
Thanks Fight On! for fighting the good fight on this. Its not nearly as simple as chromosomes and muscle chemistry. There is a scientific component, but there are also legal, social and ethical components. We are in the beginning stages of what will probably take years to find the best answers. If you want to get a taste of the various sides of this issue the following article is a great place to start. It's long, but enlightening. It is a sports scientist (Ross Tucker) interviewing another sports scientist (Joanna Harper) who also happens to have been a competitive runner, and who also has transitioned from male to female. sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/
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Post by durtpile on Dec 6, 2017 16:52:30 GMT -5
Why not start a league for eunuchs? They can play dress up if they like. Make it fair.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 6, 2017 17:05:10 GMT -5
Thanks Fight On! for fighting the good fight on this. Its not nearly as simple as chromosomes and muscle chemistry. There is a scientific component, but there are also legal, social and ethical components. We are in the beginning stages of what will probably take years to find the best answers. If you want to get a taste of the various sides of this issue the following article is a great place to start. It's long, but enlightening. It is a sports scientist (Ross Tucker) interviewing another sports scientist (Joanna Harper) who also happens to have been a competitive runner, and who also has transitioned from male to female. sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/I don't know if the Semenya debate is comparable to a transgender player, but I think it's an incredibly important case study for the importance of protecting gendered divisions. The fact is, we've never seen Semenya run to her potential (and it's not coincidental that she's avoided the sprints and chose the mid-distances where it's easier to run tactically and hold back) because she'd be blowing past the incredibly doped up world records and automatically be suspicious. I mean, she tripled the 400-800-1500 (+heats!!!) at the SA Championships over the span of a couple of hours - there's just no way that's even remotely plausible if she were playing on an even playing field. It's not good for sports. What I don't know is where a transgendered individual undergoing hormone therapy falls on this spectrum.
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Post by dd2000 on Dec 6, 2017 17:10:54 GMT -5
“Science” would also give her an X and a Y chromosome making her a male. If you need a place to spew transphobic ignorance, take it to Off The Net. Furthermore, this is all covered in other threads. Having an opinion different than yours does not constitute a phobia.
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Post by lo4um on Dec 6, 2017 17:11:26 GMT -5
Pretty soon there will be no need for that 5’11” setter when you can get someone who is a man and built like a man but calls them self a woman. Pretty ignorant comment but I'm glad to know where you stand on the subject. It’s true though. Why recruit a women when you can recruit/sign a man? Coaches want to win.
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Post by Murina on Dec 6, 2017 17:17:41 GMT -5
Thanks Fight On! for fighting the good fight on this. Its not nearly as simple as chromosomes and muscle chemistry. There is a scientific component, but there are also legal, social and ethical components. We are in the beginning stages of what will probably take years to find the best answers. If you want to get a taste of the various sides of this issue the following article is a great place to start. It's long, but enlightening. It is a sports scientist (Ross Tucker) interviewing another sports scientist (Joanna Harper) who also happens to have been a competitive runner, and who also has transitioned from male to female. sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/I don't know if the Semenya debate is comparable to a transgender player, but I think it's an incredibly important case study for the importance of protecting gendered divisions. The fact is, we've never seen Semenya run to her potential (and it's not coincidental that she's avoided the sprints and chose the mid-distances where it's easier to run tactically and hold back) because she'd be blowing past the incredibly doped up world records and automatically be suspicious. I mean, she tripled the 400-800-1500 (+heats!!!) at the SA Championships over the span of a couple of hours - there's just no way that's even remotely plausible if she were playing on an even playing field. It's not good for sports. What I don't know is where a transgendered individual undergoing hormone therapy falls on this spectrum. Did you read the interview? It's more about how to regulate transgender/intersex athletes competing against females. Running happens to be the sport, but the issues of fairness and how to regulate are the same.
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