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Post by VBwatcher on Oct 9, 2006 21:14:53 GMT -5
Personally, I'd take an INTERNATIONAL player anytime!
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Post by roofed! on Oct 9, 2006 21:27:06 GMT -5
The NCAA definition of what constitutes a "pro" itself is problematic, and is heavily biased against team sports. They are many collegiate tennis players, both American and foreigners, who have competed on professional circuit, albeit without accepting prize money to preserve their NCAA eligibility status. Many of the top tennis teams have players from Europe or South Africa, sometimes making up more than half of their rosters.
Swimmers on the top college/club teams are also likely to be training and competing with professional swimmers (such as their income from appearance fees, endorsements etc). Now swimmers are regarded as an individual sports but the these swimmers also compete on team relay events, and these teams could include "pro" swimmers". So why isn't swimmers being docked for the "pro" rules?
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Post by roofed! on Oct 9, 2006 21:37:21 GMT -5
Personally, I'd take an INTERNATIONAL player anytime! Now, if only Haley can find a way to recruit Feng Kun! ;D Kidding aside, in an earlier thread on the Chinese players on the Missouri team, a poster stated that there is no pro league in China. However, I have read in the past that the Chinese does have a volleyball league, though I'm sure that the money isn't as big as those in Europe but enough to pay the players on the teams. Reading the blog of Nebraska's recent trip to Japan and China (by John Baylor), he wrote that the Huskers played against pro teams in Beijing and Shanghai (the Shanghai pro team is 5-time defending champion of the Chinese Pro League).
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Post by BearClause on Oct 9, 2006 21:44:25 GMT -5
3) Kaczor and Cutera, for exaple, in my opinion are "pros" by the NCAA rules (I can't, and have no interest in proving it though). However, the reality is that they are probably making far more money with their scholarship than they were making playing in Europe (especially when you consider USC being a private school, and Cutera costing international rates at Cal). It could very well be true if they were only costing "in state" tuition at a public school. NCAA scholarship athletes are, in many if not most cases, more professional than their "professional" foreign counterpart!!! Actually - I found out that Cal doesn't have an international tuition, although it used to when I was a student (nearly $20K a year back then). The only requirement for international students now is a nominally higher "nonimmigrant international" health insurance fee. Other than that, it's the same nonresident tuition that would apply to an out-of-state student. registrar.berkeley.edu/Registration/feesched.html
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Post by BearClause on Oct 9, 2006 21:49:56 GMT -5
Swimmers on the top college/club teams are also likely to be training and competing with professional swimmers (such as their income from appearance fees, endorsements etc). Now swimmers are regarded as an individual sports but the these swimmers also compete on team relay events, and these teams could include "pro" swimmers". So why isn't swimmers being docked for the "pro" rules? I think the biggest thing about "professional teams" was that the NCAA became worried about semi-pro teams giving players under the table payments for their services. There are far bigger things to worry about, such as illegal loans, gifts, etc from boosters and coaches. As a Cal basketball fan, I know about the coaching staff making illegal payments, and they suffered dearly for that. Still the NCAA rules really don't make all that much sense given the way different sports are treated.
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Post by beachman on Oct 9, 2006 22:08:15 GMT -5
3) Kaczor and Cutera, for exaple, in my opinion are "pros" by the NCAA rules (I can't, and have no interest in proving it though). However, the reality is that they are probably making far more money with their scholarship than they were making playing in Europe (especially when you consider USC being a private school, and Cutera costing international rates at Cal). It could very well be true if they were only costing "in state" tuition at a public school. NCAA scholarship athletes are, in many if not most cases, more professional than their "professional" foreign counterpart!!! Actually - I found out that Cal doesn't have an international tuition, although it used to when I was a student (nearly $20K a year back then). The only requirement for international students now is a nominally higher "nonimmigrant international" health insurance fee. Other than that, it's the same nonresident tuition that would apply to an out-of-state student. registrar.berkeley.edu/Registration/feesched.htmlActually don't assume that you are paying International Tuition rates because there are "waivers" for foreign student athletes than many schools can use.....very common practice especially in sports such as tennis where the international players dominate in the NCAA institutions
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Post by Tiruray2004 on Oct 9, 2006 23:40:09 GMT -5
Funny, the NCAA is much like the United Nations...it creates rules and regulations, but lacks the balls to enforce said rules and regulations.It's a shame the NCAA allows cheaters like Haley to twist its bylaws in order to gain an advantage. It's no wonder the PAC 10 has won so many championships...it's the only conference that refuses to play by the rules! BIK, that's because PAc-10 rules the NCAA!
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Post by landon on Oct 9, 2006 23:48:43 GMT -5
good job rubio! bottom line, every program recruits internationally to be ahead of the game. look at oregon. jim moore did the same thing because he had to get ahead some how. not that they are killing teams, but they are a lot better now. usc has been doing it for a while now. a lot of teams do it. dave was speaking out of frustration, but normally coaches don't speak to the press about it. but it is about time. the thing i respect about rubio is what he said to the press is what he says to coaches that recruit overseas. we have a lot of good kids over here to pick from, but if you want to win national titles, you have to get that 23 year old freshman with a lot of experience to do so. or to at least build up your program so your ranked high and then get those good in-country players. no regrets dave! preach on.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 9, 2006 23:53:54 GMT -5
Swimmers on the top college/club teams are also likely to be training and competing with professional swimmers (such as their income from appearance fees, endorsements etc). Now swimmers are regarded as an individual sports but the these swimmers also compete on team relay events, and these teams could include "pro" swimmers". So why isn't swimmers being docked for the "pro" rules? I think the biggest thing about "professional teams" was that the NCAA became worried about semi-pro teams giving players under the table payments for their services. There are far bigger things to worry about, such as illegal loans, gifts, etc from boosters and coaches. As a Cal basketball fan, I know about the coaching staff making illegal payments, and they suffered dearly for that. Still the NCAA rules really don't make all that much sense given the way different sports are treated. Its too bad the NCAA don't seem to worry about (or thoroughly investigate) under the table payments to players in some of the foreign leagues which from what I've heard is relatively common in some of the leagues where players are ostensibly maintaining they're amateur status.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 9, 2006 23:55:56 GMT -5
Funny, the NCAA is much like the United Nations...it creates rules and regulations, but lacks the balls to enforce said rules and regulations.It's a shame the NCAA allows cheaters like Haley to twist its bylaws in order to gain an advantage. It's no wonder the PAC 10 has won so many championships...it's the only conference that refuses to play by the rules! BIK, that's because PAc-10 rules the NCAA! The Pac 10 says to the NCAA: "Rules? We don't need no steenkeeng rules!"
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Post by Murina on Oct 10, 2006 0:10:11 GMT -5
Actually don't assume that you are paying International Tuition rates because there are "waivers" for foreign student athletes than many schools can use.....very common practice especially in sports such as tennis where the international players dominate in the NCAA institutions Even so, the point is that the scholarship they are getting is worth more than they were getting paid at home.
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Post by sIsam on Oct 10, 2006 0:46:49 GMT -5
Now, if only Haley can find a way to recruit Feng Kun! ;D Kidding aside, in an earlier thread on the Chinese players on the Missouri team, a poster stated that there is no pro league in China. However, I have read in the past that the Chinese does have a volleyball league, though I'm sure that the money isn't as big as those in Europe but enough to pay the players on the teams. Reading the blog of Nebraska's recent trip to Japan and China (by John Baylor), he wrote that the Huskers played against pro teams in Beijing and Shanghai (the Shanghai pro team is 5-time defending champion of the Chinese Pro League). Definitions can be misleading... Theoretically speaking, there is no professional volleyball league in Turkey either. But players do get paid. No sports league but those belonging to soccer are ruled as pros. Basketball, volleyball etc are all considered as amateur sports. Because of this, kids playing on senior teams of their clubs (some of them getting paid, most not) in all but soccer clubs are allowed to and do at participate in high school competition. We've quite a few 15-18 year olds who are playing in Division I, either because they are too good for their junior program or because the team needs them to fill out the spaces on their roster. Most of these kids don't get paid, and if they do, it is peanuts. I know a couple of high profile young kids at clubs in Istanbul where what the club paid them did not even come close to covering the cost of their travel to/from practice. Still they are pros in NCAA standards because they play with players who are pros.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 10, 2006 0:59:15 GMT -5
Are such players paid the equivalent of (or more than) the ~$333.33 that the two Gopher players alledgedly took in winning their summer grass triples tournament that them 3 and 6 match suspensions?
Is so then would it not be reasonable to expect such payments to at least elicit similar suspensions if they're participating on D1 NCAA teams?
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Post by foreignball on Oct 10, 2006 1:04:37 GMT -5
www.dixieathletics.com/news.cfm?news_id=885Southern Idaho's coach Ben Stroud admitted he didn't go all the way to Poland to recruit 6-4 JoAnna Kaczor and 6-1 Marta Siemiatkowska. "A couple of Division I schools sent them to me," he confessed. "USC sent me Kaczor, who will be on the Polish Olympic team that goes to Beijing in 2008 and I got Siemiatkowska from the University of Tennessee. I sort of have working relationships with both schools." Pretty common scenario, I would say. Works fine in 2 occasions: A) When a potential recruit can’t score high enough on SAT/TOEFL in order to be cleared by NCAA and/or admitted by the institution she is applying at. JUCO have much lower admissions requirements plus most of them do not require TOEFL. After successful completion of JUCO program the above tests are not required any more so the player in question can transfer to a 4 year institution without any problems. B) When the coach is not 100% sure about how good the foreign recruit really is. You know all that videos, scouts reports, coaches references, etc. but the lack of personal observations sometimes is crucial (a lot of coaches got burnt by taking foreign players that turned out be way below the expectations). So they send their eventual recruit to a friendly JUCO college. Great deal for free – somebody else is paying the expenses, they just have to keep an eye how the player is doing there (note that almost any of these foreign players who might not be good enough for a top Div 1 program is always pure gold for any JOCI team). The trick is they (the coaches) are not obliged to take the player after she finishes her education/eligibility at JUCO. R. Patrick always has 2-3 foreign girls in different junior programs, however he doesn’t always transfer them to his team.
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Post by BearClause on Oct 10, 2006 1:25:09 GMT -5
www.dixieathletics.com/news.cfm?news_id=885Southern Idaho's coach Ben Stroud admitted he didn't go all the way to Poland to recruit 6-4 JoAnna Kaczor and 6-1 Marta Siemiatkowska. "A couple of Division I schools sent them to me," he confessed. "USC sent me Kaczor, who will be on the Polish Olympic team that goes to Beijing in 2008 and I got Siemiatkowska from the University of Tennessee. I sort of have working relationships with both schools." Pretty common scenario, I would say. Works fine in 2 occasions: A) When a potential recruit can’t score high enough on SAT/TOEFL in order to be cleared by NCAA and/or admitted by the institution she is applying at. JUCO have much lower admissions requirements plus most of them do not require TOEFL. After successful completion of JUCO program the above tests are not required any more so the player in question can transfer to a 4 year institution without any problems. B) When the coach is not 100% sure about how good the foreign recruit really is. You know all that videos, scouts reports, coaches references, etc. but the lack of personal observations sometimes is crucial (a lot of coaches got burnt by taking foreign players that turned out be way below the expectations). So they send their eventual recruit to a friendly JUCO college. Great deal for free – somebody else is paying the expenses, they just have to keep an eye how the player is doing there (note that almost any of these foreign players who might not be good enough for a top Div 1 program is always pure gold for any JOCI team). The trick is they (the coaches) are not obliged to take the player after she finishes her education/eligibility at JUCO. R. Patrick always has 2-3 foreign girls in different junior programs, however he doesn’t always transfer them to his team. I'll just add one thing. I doubt the former is the case with Kaczor given that she played only one year at CSI. It's only possible to transfer to an NCAA institution after one season if already fully NCAA qualified as a freshman. It came up when a Cal football player transfered after one season at a JC. He was fully qualified, but his main 4-year school choices all dried up when their coaches were fired and nobody else was recruiting him. He stayed at home and was spotted by our coach who was targeting his teammate. If they're not already NCAA-eligible as a freshman, to transfer to an NCAA school after 2 years requires that the requirements for an associates degree be met. I believe there may be some arcane allowances if the associates degree isn't met, but it might no include immediate eligibility for practice/competition.
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