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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 1:21:20 GMT -5
Come to think of it, Lily Kahanamoku, at 6'2", was the tallest OH the Wahine ever had. The others were in the range of 5'8 to 5'11". Having seen Kanani play in her junior year, she is the next Wahine star. She gave a solid performance at the Durango classic 3 weeks ago. Jessica Sudduth was 6'2", not the best OH but a damn good passer and played really good defense for a tall girl and Sarah Mason was 6'3".
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 1:24:33 GMT -5
I don't know that younger and fresher is necessarily better. All the top programs in the nation seem to have 'mature', more experienced, coaches at the helm, eg. Nebraska, UCLA, Stanford, USC, Washington, Penn State, Florida, and Minnesota. Maybe I should word it a little better. But if you look at the top programs right now, they do defense, blocking, setting and hitting a little different. Shoji has been around the game for a long long time. Only Andy Banachowski I think has been around longer and won more games than Shoji. But our program seems so old and traditional. This game has changed, players have changed so our coach needs to adjust to that level. I don't think we'll win a national championship unitl the program follows.
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 1:28:12 GMT -5
Hittle didn't have "big time hype". She was in the lower half of Fab 50 if I recall, nothing near top 5. Hittle may not have been in the top 50 but she was highly recruited and the local papers here made her sound like she was in the top 50. In true form, the local papers are again hyping up herring. She'll probably be great but I don't think its fair to put that kind of pressure on a high school recruit but it's happening everywhere. Some players have that natural talent to excel at the college and international levels. Remember Michelle Wie?
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Post by roy on Oct 21, 2007 1:30:39 GMT -5
Willoughby wasn't a top recruit because no one really knew about her. Only LBSU, Hawaii and Nebraska. Thats about it. Other than that she really didn't get much attention because she played for a relatively small school and not a big name club team. I don't think that is exactly right. I recall the rollshot article saying that there were a few other teams interested in her. And I know an article in 2003 said that Florida went after Willoughby as Shoji went after Cruz (imagine what would have happened if either coach landed both players). It is relatively interesting to see the recruits Shoji gets. We have mentioned constantly that Shoji hasn't received the top recruits in the nation. In fact, I believe Herring might be the highest ranked player for the school. She is the only top 5 player to commit to Hawaii. Top 10 is probably Willoughby, Kahumoku, Boogard, and Kamanao. But as far as top 25 recruits, the only other player is Kaufman. Mafua, Hittle, Thomas, Keefe, Ferrell, Otineru are not top 25 players. Mafua was ranked #27, and Hittle and Thomas were in the 40's. Keefe was in the 50's, Brandt was in the 80's, and Otineru and Ferrell were in the 90's. Not too sure about Sanders and Gregory. Players like Thurlby, Duggins, and Arnott were Fab 50s, but not I have no idea where they would have been ranked in the prepvolleyball list. In fact, minus Thomas who is injured, Hawaii only has 4 Fab 50 players available on this year's roster (Houston, Hittle, Otineru, and Simmons). Of course, it is interesting to see that Otineru was a Fab 50, but ranked in the 90s in the prepvolleyball list and Kaufman who was ranked #27 wasn't on the list.
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Post by sasa on Oct 21, 2007 1:33:40 GMT -5
Understood.
My thing is recruiting. I started a thread awhile ago asking why everyone thought we didn't get top recruits and there was quite a variety of responses.
I think that until we get top recruits (like Herring), it'll be difficult to compete for a National Title. I think we could get away with it in the past, but not these days. The most recent National Champions seem to be loaded with big time recruits.
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 1:34:46 GMT -5
Willoughby wasn't a top recruit because no one really knew about her. Only LBSU, Hawaii and Nebraska. Thats about it. Other than that she really didn't get much attention because she played for a relatively small school and not a big name club team. I don't think that is exactly right. I recall the rollshot article saying that there were a few other teams interested in her. And I know an article in 2003 said that Florida went after Willoughby as Shoji went after Cruz (imagine what would have happened if either coach landed both players). It is relatively interesting to see the recruits Shoji gets. We have mentioned constantly that Shoji hasn't received the top recruits in the nation. In fact, I believe Herring might be the highest ranked player for the school. She is the only top 5 player to commit to Hawaii. Top 10 is probably Willoughby, Kahumoku, Boogard, and Kamanao. But as far as top 25 recruits, the only other player is Kaufman. Mafua, Hittle, Thomas, Keefe, Ferrell, Otineru are not top 25 players. Mafua was ranked #27, and Hittle and Thomas were in the 40's. Keefe was in the 50's, Brandt was in the 80's, and Otineru and Ferrell were in the 90's. Not too sure about Sanders and Gregory. Players like Thurlby, Duggins, and Arnott were Fab 50s, but not I have no idea where they would have been ranked in the prepvolleyball list. In fact, minus Thomas who is injured, Hawaii only has 4 Fab 50 players available on this year's roster (Houston, Hittle, Otineru, and Simmons). Of course, it is interesting to see that Otineru was a Fab 50, but ranked in the 90s in the prepvolleyball list and Kaufman who was ranked #27 wasn't on the list. I was talking about top schools. Not like Dartmouth or something like that hehehe ;D....some top schools noticed but she wasn't heavily recruited. If you watch the NU VS UH regional game in Nebraska, you'll hear Heather Cox mention this. I remember that Rollshot.com article you're talking about. Whatever happened to them? Sorry to get off the subject.
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Post by pineapple on Oct 21, 2007 5:21:31 GMT -5
Hittle didn't have "big time hype". She was in the lower half of Fab 50 if I recall, nothing near top 5. Hittle may not have been in the top 50 but she was highly recruited and the local papers here made her sound like she was in the top 50. In true form, the local papers are again hyping up herring. She'll probably be great but I don't think its fair to put that kind of pressure on a high school recruit but it's happening everywhere. Some players have that natural talent to excel at the college and international levels. Remember Michelle Wie? I was wrong in forgetting about sudduth. But I had corrected myself about Mason before youtr post. As for hyping, there has been a lot done by both papers about the Wahine in general year to year. Out of context with the whole NCCA. Then when they lose like they did the past two years at the outset, there is a big let down. We ask why? The papers misled us. As for Herring, I never read any hyping about her in the papers. I really don't know how she'll do in DIV I but I 've seen her play twice at the Anne Wang classic her junior year. She even outplayed Alix Klineman. She is rated up there. She beat out highly recruited HS OHs in the Durango Classic in Vegas earlier this year by making the 1st team all-tournament team.
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 5:39:46 GMT -5
Hittle may not have been in the top 50 but she was highly recruited and the local papers here made her sound like she was in the top 50. In true form, the local papers are again hyping up herring. She'll probably be great but I don't think its fair to put that kind of pressure on a high school recruit but it's happening everywhere. Some players have that natural talent to excel at the college and international levels. Remember Michelle Wie? I was wrong in forgetting about sudduth. But I had corrected myself about Mason before youtr post. As for hyping, there has been a lot done by both papers about the Wahine in general year to year. Out of context with the whole NCCA. Then when they lose like they did the past two years at the outset, there is a big let down. We ask why? The papers misled us. As for Herring, I never read any hyping about her in the papers. I really don't know how she'll do in DIV I but I 've seen her play twice at the Anne Wang classic her junior year. She even outplayed Alix Klineman. She is rated up there. She beat out highly recruited HS OHs in the Durango Classic in Vegas earlier this year by making the 1st team all-tournament team. Let me get this straight, I'm in no way shooting down Herrings capabilities. No doubt she's good. My only guess is she might be too small right now to make that big of an impact on the OH in this day and age when girls are growing so much taller. Especially for a team whos reputation as a national power house preceeds them. She's ranked 5th and to me thats a testament to her skill and her knowledge of the game. Only when she actually plays in college will any of us know for sure. I guess i'm just a pessemist when it comes to this kind of stuff. Good luck to her
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Post by hwnstunner on Oct 21, 2007 5:42:01 GMT -5
The Wahine have had their share of tall outsides ... I believe one of the first were Jen Roberts at 6'2 ... than there was Sudduth at 6'2, Kahumoku, Boogaard, Mason, and Houston ... Keefe and Ferrell are relatively tall as well at 6'1ish. But, you have to remember that when Shoji recruits tall players, they are all fairly well-rounded. His outside hitter mentality is pass first. With the exception of the raw Houston and Ferrell and Roberts (converted middle) the rest of the taller outsides were quick, agile, and could pass and play defense. My point? Not many 6'5 players fit Shoji's style ... and the ones that have such as Pavan, Klineman, and Love ... have gone bye bye... I am still hurting on Love not coming to UH...
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Post by Pipe Attack on Oct 21, 2007 5:52:31 GMT -5
Height isn't everything in volleyball. but it helps a whole lot! the problem with Hawaii is, they are small, but their passing seems shaky at times. If you are a small team, you need passing and defense (for example, Asian teams like Japan) so that you are able to isolate your hitters and/or be an athletic team (like Cuba).
Herring is a very very good volleyball player (if she wasn't, she wouldn't have gotten all of those awards (ex. Sophomore of the Year, Best Passer in an international competition, ranked #5 on prepvolleyball.com, etc)). I think we should just wait for her to come in then see what she is capable of doing.
The season is not over yet and I think the Wahines are progressing as best they can and I think a lot of us supporters should support the roster that is playing now rather than thinking ahead (then we would have nothing to talk about in the off-season).
As for Shoji, I think he likes to play it safe (and if you watch international volleyball, that's how it is played). So I think he is doing a decent job now.
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Post by hwnstunner on Oct 21, 2007 6:06:36 GMT -5
I agree with ya lotsets. Shoji has always played it safe and I mean ... it's gotten him fairly far every year. But I guess the Wahine fans are never going to change and I don't think any of us will be settled until the Wahine win a title ... which could be never and could be next year. Who knows?
Anyway ... for what it's worth the Wahine are always one or two players away from being a contender. If the Wahine had one more terminator opposite Houston and one more experienced and terminating middle opposite Sanders they'd be right there. BUT, the fact of the matter is they don't.
I will stand by this: Shoji will always have the ABILITY to bring the team to the National Title ... but the question is, will he have the personal to do so?
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 6:06:51 GMT -5
The Wahine have had their share of tall outsides ... I believe one of the first were Jen Roberts at 6'2 ... than there was Sudduth at 6'2, Kahumoku, Boogaard, Mason, and Houston ... Keefe and Ferrell are relatively tall as well at 6'1ish. But, you have to remember that when Shoji recruits tall players, they are all fairly well-rounded. His outside hitter mentality is pass first. With the exception of the raw Houston and Ferrell and Roberts (converted middle) the rest of the taller outsides were quick, agile, and could pass and play defense. My point? Not many 6'5 players fit Shoji's style ... and the ones that have such as Pavan, Klineman, and Love ... have gone bye bye... I am still hurting on Love not coming to UH... Courtney Love? Nah, just kidding! Jen Roberts was a middle her freshman and sophmore seasons then converted to RH her junior and senior seasons. Just a fun fact. Passing is super duper important but cannot be the main focus in recruiting. If thats what Shoji is basing his recruiting on then thats my point when I say the coaching staff needs to be refreshed or maybe changed. I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I can't be. Lets just say, for argument sake, that passing is his main focus and he recruits so-so outsides with good passig skills. What happens when the pass if not so good. Our outsides need to be good enough to hit off-speed sets. Will our OH be able to hit from the backrow if the pass isn't perfect? A good outside hitter to me is gold. Platinum if she's freakishly tall. Kahumoku was platinum. Now remember, Dave recruited Mafua who did not set in highschool but thought she had great "athletisism" and would learn buckets from Kamanao. Wheres mafua now? On the bench. Maybe he should have spent Kamano's sophmore season searching for a key SETTER to take over a program that really didn't need that position filled till, lets see, this year. I'm not trying to knock Shoji because he's taken this program into the history books and he's a great coach who continues to keep the wahine in the top 25. I just think that some of his techniques are a little out dated. I think Mike Sealy was a good addition to the program but there are only so much an assistant coach can do. Sorry it's 1:10 in the morning, my thoughts are all over the place.
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Post by hwnstunner on Oct 21, 2007 6:17:24 GMT -5
Haha, even if its late you bring up a lot of good points. Kahumoku's height was butter... Willoughby athleticism was gravy. But ya ... hopefully Herring can break the mold of what it "takes" to be a prime time college vball outside. I'm sure she can but I am not sure how soon or when. I'm really tired of getting MY expectations for the Wahine recruits up too high... especially with certain players that have become duds ... BUT, I'm anxious to see what Herring can bring to the table.
As always, Dave's problem with recruiting is being able to bring in the polished players. I'm pretty sure Mafua was not the Wahine's top choice at setter to replace Kamana'o ... but honestly, how many of the top setters of the '05 class actually considered Hawaii? We seen the same scenario with Vakasausau who came to UH as the "just in case setter" if the Wahine could not get Carey.
Whatever the case may be, until the Wahine can average 10 star athletes at every position like Stanford, Nebraska, Penn State, and Texas have been, they are going to continue to struggle keeping up. And no, that's not a dis on Shoji ... that's just the way its gonna be,.
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Post by silverbongfour20 on Oct 21, 2007 6:22:04 GMT -5
Please don't kill me but I really say whats on my mind. ;D ;D International teams like Japan have great D. But look where they are on the standings. Not too high. Russia, Brazil, China all have tall players in the front row. Russia has tall ones in the back too and they run a very quick offense with the exception of Gamova who can pretty much hit over the Empire State Building. Those chicks from Cuba aren't very tall but they can really jump and they also run a very different offense with two setters who also hit in the front row! China is quick and they have great defense. Brazil just lost a good player in Carvalho but other than that they still have another quick offense and scary back row attack. To me thats not really playing it safe. Dave does play his team safe. If the setter digs the ball, usually the secondary setter will just set the left side, when the opponent is hitting out of the back row our middles don't always jump, we run very few crossing patterns, and opposing blockers are rarely fooled. Now if youre the opposing team scouting would be a breeze right? I mean c'mon you see this in every match. Move our hitters around, start setting a faster tempo, run Sanders on a back 1, bring Houston in on a X play, what about a thirty-one? We cant just play it safe cause we'll never go very far. I'm a setter and I like to run different plays to fool the defense of the other team. Why should that be so hard for a D1 program? Thats all I'm asking. Am I wrong? Please don't hate me.
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Post by hwnstunner on Oct 21, 2007 6:35:53 GMT -5
I think everyone has been wanting a quicker offense since Willoughby and Kahumoku graduated. They had a "quicker" offense in '04 but since then ... reverted back to the high outside, stepout, and occasional X play from the right side attacker. Ehh... haha. But I suppose ONE reason (aside from Shoji keeping things safe) are again, his personal. Houston, Mason, Boogaard all liked the high outside sets... I dunno... haha I am so tired I'm talking bubbles...
BUT ... they were all 6'2 and had Kamana'o as their setter. NOW ... we have a 5'10 Otineru who is getting adjusted ... but folks, she's hitting the high ball as well. I'd like the Wahine to set outside as quick as they set Hittle on the right a simple flick and let Otineru beat the block ... but eh. Not happening ... Although Sanders and Kaufman are effective ... they are pretty one dimensional middles ... Maybe when Houston grads Shoji will be forced to set low and fast ... I mean if your going to average 5'10 across ... you might wanna speed things up just a taaaaad bit.
But history is the best indicator for the future right?
Blah. The wahine could use a faster offense this year though. IMO>
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