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Post by volleyguy on Apr 13, 2020 16:40:12 GMT -5
Knuckles, Kubik and Sun are locks to be in the serve receive pattern all (or most) of the time. Realistically the only ways Densberger gets a shot is if she beats out Akana for the primary DS spot, or improves enough to be a better back row option than Sun. Personally I don't see either of those things happening, and expect her role to continue as a serving sub for one of the MB's. Agree on all counts. Kaylei will have to battle Densberger for sure, but they've invested a scholarship because they're hoping she wins the DS role. I think Nebraska is a great spot for her. She impressed me at USAHP last year and I think she'll get the DS job. Sun had a really poor year passing. She dropped from 50% good pass percentage in 2018 to just 38% in 2019. She got used to passing next to the likes of JWO, Foecke and Maloney. A second year with this unit will definitely help but as a senior she needs to be more consistent for the younger players. Lexi Sun struggled with her passing, but there are actually reasons for that completely unrelated to who she was next to in the passing formation. The stats reflect that drop-off but not exactly the reason why.
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Post by donut on Apr 13, 2020 16:48:26 GMT -5
Sun never played next to JWO. True. Swap JWO for McCoy and Rounsaville who were ~60% gp% in 2017. Same point though. Sun got subbed out in the back row for Rounsaville most of the season. She stayed in the back row as a primary passer for short stints at the beginning of the season (and even then, they sometimes pulled White into the passing formation and hid Sun for a back-row attack), but as the season progressed, she usually subbed out after she served. 2018 with Nebraska was really her first year as a consistent 6-rotation player and primary passer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 16:57:21 GMT -5
It isn’t consequential to remember every data point. And even so there’d be disagreements on right/wrong decision-making. You don’t think Hames should’ve set Callie when she didn’t transition, I think she should’ve given the ball up to her to make a 1-on-1 tip play against Purdue’s middle instead of throwing it over the net. At least that had a possibility of scoring. Wrong dump. The first dump she could've set Schwarzenbach, although I'd argue that the back row was a better option since Sun was no threat. That said, you're right, the dump was the wrong option. But you said there were two dumps where she ignored the middle. Watch the play. The second dump Schwazenbach isn't even an option. She's stood on the net facing Hames. There's no way she could get set from that position. And again, it's not EVERY data point. You couldn't remember the serving team on a play you specifically chose. There is no better example than that on how inconsistent our memories are. Passing gets marginalized in the memory of most observers. That's why I post more about it than any other single topic. He didn’t remember the serving team because it had nothing to do with his example of Hames’ poor decision making *in transition*.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 17:04:28 GMT -5
True. Swap JWO for McCoy and Rounsaville who were ~60% gp% in 2017. Same point though. Sun got subbed out in the back row for Rounsaville most of the season. She stayed in the back row as a primary passer for short stints at the beginning of the season (and even then, they sometimes pulled White into the passing formation and hid Sun for a back-row attack), but as the season progressed, she usually subbed out after she served. 2018 with Nebraska was really her first year as a consistent 6-rotation player and primary passer. You guys pick weird things to argue about... Sun passed 358 balls in 2017 and 400 in 2018. She passed 372 this year.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 17:09:54 GMT -5
Wrong dump. The first dump she could've set Schwarzenbach, although I'd argue that the back row was a better option since Sun was no threat. That said, you're right, the dump was the wrong option. But you said there were two dumps where she ignored the middle. Watch the play. The second dump Schwazenbach isn't even an option. She's stood on the net facing Hames. There's no way she could get set from that position. And again, it's not EVERY data point. You couldn't remember the serving team on a play you specifically chose. There is no better example than that on how inconsistent our memories are. Passing gets marginalized in the memory of most observers. That's why I post more about it than any other single topic. He didn’t remember the serving team because it had nothing to do with his example of Hames’ poor decision making *in transition*. He didn't remember the pass because, unless you're trying to, people usually don't remember passes. They remember shanks or aces. He didn't MENTION the pass because it had nothing to do with his example... But I then used that example - a point of his choosing - to illustrate how poor we are at remembering the first contact on individual plays. Again, I'm not attacking Hawk Attack. I like his posts. But this isn't a new phenomena. I'd like to see the GP% posted in the box score like the hitting percentage because at least then it'd give some basic info.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Apr 13, 2020 17:16:41 GMT -5
I’d ask you to point out where I called Hames atrocious. I’ll save you time, I didn’t so I’m not sure what you’re smoking. You could've saved yourself time... I didn't say you did. I mean I didn’t call Hames atrocious like you just did Knuckles My point was I didn't say anything about a player being "atrocious"... which I usually try to avoid although I'm sure I have before. At worst, I described Hames' seasons thus far as "mediocre to poor" per program standards. Which I don't believe is uncalled for or really, unfair. Which ties back to your point: Based on your measuring stick of how players measure up to the highest level Huskers, Knuckles would be atrocious compared to Wong Orantes and Banwarth. Stivrins compared to Holmquist, Thater, Elmer.... Stivrins would in fact be just pretty good. I don’t think we see these players very differently, Stivrins is great, Sun really good, Knuckles pretty solid as a frosh........I’m challenging how you are evaluating them, which is again up against legends. The PSU roster up against Harmotto, Glass, Hodge, Fawcett, Brown........? You are FAR over-inflating my measuring stick. I described the standards as premier program, National Championship-caliber, & great/outstanding/exceptional. That includes, but is certainly not exclusive to, players like JWO, Banwarth, etc. That also includes players like Albrecht, Stalls, L. Cook, etc. and also players like Haggerty, Hall, & Holman in your MB comparisons to Stivrins, none of which are "legends" but certainly fit the standards of the program well. Same with the PSU roster, comparing Blossom/Cathey/Gorrell to Detering, Frantti, Dorton, Walbridge, etc.
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Post by jwvolley on Apr 13, 2020 17:18:07 GMT -5
Sun got subbed out in the back row for Rounsaville most of the season. She stayed in the back row as a primary passer for short stints at the beginning of the season (and even then, they sometimes pulled White into the passing formation and hid Sun for a back-row attack), but as the season progressed, she usually subbed out after she served. 2018 with Nebraska was really her first year as a consistent 6-rotation player and primary passer. You guys pick weird things to argue about... Sun passed 358 balls in 2017 and 400 in 2018. She passed 372 this year. I actually didn't realize this. Teams must have served the crap out of her that year when she was in the formation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 17:23:15 GMT -5
You guys pick weird things to argue about... Sun passed 358 balls in 2017 and 400 in 2018. She passed 372 this year. I actually didn't realize this. Teams must have served the crap out of her that year when she was in the formation. She passed better than White on the season. Again, McCoy and Rounsaville passed lights out. Anyone holding down a 60%+ good pass percentage is doing well.
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Post by donut on Apr 13, 2020 17:27:17 GMT -5
Sun got subbed out in the back row for Rounsaville most of the season. She stayed in the back row as a primary passer for short stints at the beginning of the season (and even then, they sometimes pulled White into the passing formation and hid Sun for a back-row attack), but as the season progressed, she usually subbed out after she served. 2018 with Nebraska was really her first year as a consistent 6-rotation player and primary passer. You guys pick weird things to argue about... Sun passed 358 balls in 2017 and 400 in 2018. She passed 372 this year. I mean, if you consider this arguing. You're making assertions about Sun's passing history, and getting the underlying evidence wrong. I'm just pointing that out. That being said, I am shocked at those passing numbers. I went back and looked, and at most it looks like she played 6 rotations for 33% of the season (the first third), and even then, based on Karch's comment at 11:10 in this match (he said that they had been tempted to play her 6 rotations but she just wasn't ready), I highly doubt it was 100% of the time. In those matches, they even often hid her in the backrow and had White, Rounsaville and McCoy in the passing formation even when White was front row. Starting with the first Baylor match, it looks like they played her across the front row, only having her pass when she was in RF, and then letting her serve before subbing her out for Rounsaville. They did this up until their loss to Stanford in the tournament.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Apr 13, 2020 17:29:15 GMT -5
He didn’t remember the serving team because it had nothing to do with his example of Hames’ poor decision making *in transition*. He didn't remember the pass because, unless you're trying to, people usually don't remember passes. They remember shanks or aces. He didn't MENTION the pass because it had nothing to do with his example... But I then used that example - a point of his choosing - to illustrate how poor we are at remembering the first contact on individual plays. Again, I'm not attacking Hawk Attack . I like his posts. But this isn't a new phenomena. I'd like to see the GP% posted in the box score like the hitting percentage because at least then it'd give some basic info. That's pretty arbitrary. We use a graphic from the Wisconsin/Stanford championship match to point out blocking schemes and in the photo series I know it was an OOS in transition and if you asked me who set it - Gray or Hentz - I wouldn't know the answer. I remember Albrecht chasing down an attack into the bench but if you asked me any other details - who sent the ball back over the net, who hit the ball to start the scramble play, or even what team they were playing - I wouldn't know the answer. Saying things like "people usually don't remember passes" and insisting therefore you cannot adequately evaluate a setter's performance over a season is, I think, a reach. It's helpful to bear in mind... but we also see what's happening in front of us. And if it's not good then it's just not good. You can shift blame around for it but the end result is still what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 17:36:06 GMT -5
You guys pick weird things to argue about... Sun passed 358 balls in 2017 and 400 in 2018. She passed 372 this year. I mean, if you consider this arguing. You're making assertions about Sun's passing history, and getting the underlying evidence wrong. I'm just pointing that out. That being said, I am shocked at those passing numbers. I went back and looked, and at most it looks like she played 6 rotations for 33% of the season (the first third), and even then, based on Karch's comment at 11:10 in this match (he said that they had been tempted to play her 6 rotations but she just wasn't ready), I highly doubt it was 100% of the time. In those matches, they even often hid her in the backrow and had White, Rounsaville and McCoy in the passing formation even when White was front row. Starting with the first Baylor match, it looks like they played her across the front row, only having her pass when she was in RF, and then letting her serve before subbing her out for Rounsaville. They did this up until their loss to Stanford in the tournament. Wait, what evidence did I get wrong? She passed 350+ balls in each of her first three years. Two of them were spent next to AT LEAST an elite Libero (60%+ GP%) and the last was not. Her good pass percentages across those years were 49.7%, 50% and 38%... You presumably know how much a good Libero does in terms of communication on each serve (seams, show & go etc). That's the point I was making. I don't get what you're trying to "point out" to me?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 17:45:44 GMT -5
He didn't remember the pass because, unless you're trying to, people usually don't remember passes. They remember shanks or aces. He didn't MENTION the pass because it had nothing to do with his example... But I then used that example - a point of his choosing - to illustrate how poor we are at remembering the first contact on individual plays. Again, I'm not attacking Hawk Attack . I like his posts. But this isn't a new phenomena. I'd like to see the GP% posted in the box score like the hitting percentage because at least then it'd give some basic info. That's pretty arbitrary. We use a graphic from the Wisconsin/Stanford championship match to point out blocking schemes and in the photo series I know it was an OOS in transition and if you asked me who set it - Gray or Hentz - I wouldn't know the answer. I remember Albrecht chasing down an attack into the bench but if you asked me any other details - who sent the ball back over the net, who hit the ball to start the scramble play, or even what team they were playing - I wouldn't know the answer. Saying things like "people usually don't remember passes" and insisting therefore you cannot adequately evaluate a setter's performance over a season is, I think, a reach. It's helpful to bear in mind... but we also see what's happening in front of us. And if it's not good then it's just not good. You can shift blame around for it but the end result is still what it is. Again, because I apparently WASN'T clear, I'm not saying you can't evaluate Hames. I'm saying that, in order to do so fairly, you need to take first contact into account. Again, before December I hadn't seen a single Nebraska fan express the passing woes numerically and I'd seen a lot of posts which didn't appear to be factoring it in at all. And, at the risk of sounding monotonous, I get it. We all remember the kills more clearly than the pass. But when you chose 2 dumps to illustrate that Hames was ignoring Schwarzenbach and, on the second one, it wasn't even possible to set her, it's not a great example of objective analysis. And again, I'm not taking shots at you; I'm speaking about the perception and evaluation in general and why I will use data points & game film as often as possible.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Apr 13, 2020 17:56:24 GMT -5
But when you chose 2 dumps to illustrate that Hames was ignoring Schwarzenbach and, on the second one, it wasn't even possible to set her, it's not a great example of objective analysis. To be fair, my illustration wasn’t that she was ignoring Callie, it was that she was making poor decisions and was being barked at for it from the bench - which was a direct response to, I think, your post about hearing it from the coaching staff.
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Post by donut on Apr 13, 2020 17:57:14 GMT -5
I mean, if you consider this arguing. You're making assertions about Sun's passing history, and getting the underlying evidence wrong. I'm just pointing that out. That being said, I am shocked at those passing numbers. I went back and looked, and at most it looks like she played 6 rotations for 33% of the season (the first third), and even then, based on Karch's comment at 11:10 in this match (he said that they had been tempted to play her 6 rotations but she just wasn't ready), I highly doubt it was 100% of the time. In those matches, they even often hid her in the backrow and had White, Rounsaville and McCoy in the passing formation even when White was front row. Starting with the first Baylor match, it looks like they played her across the front row, only having her pass when she was in RF, and then letting her serve before subbing her out for Rounsaville. They did this up until their loss to Stanford in the tournament. Wait, what evidence did I get wrong? She passed 350+ balls in each of her first three years. Two of them were spent next to AT LEAST an elite Libero (60%+ GP%) and the last was not. Her good pass percentages across those years were 49.7%, 50% and 38%... You presumably know how much a good Libero does in terms of communication on each serve (seams, show & go etc). That's the point I was making. I don't get what you're trying to "point out" to me? My point is, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for 66% of the year (Rounsaville subbed in for her). And she only passed next to McCoy for 1 rotation for 66% of the year. So these statements (ignoring the JWO part) are a bit misleading, considering how different her passing responsibilities were at Texas. Her passing "next to" Rounsaville or McCoy is radically different than her passing next to Foecke, Maloney, Knuckles or Kubik. That's all. Sun had a really poor year passing. She dropped from 50% good pass percentage in 2018 to just 38% in 2019. She got used to passing next to the likes of JWO, Foecke and Maloney. A second year with this unit will definitely help but as a senior she needs to be more consistent for the younger players. True. Swap JWO for McCoy and Rounsaville who were ~60% gp% in 2017. Same point though. That being said, still in a bit of disbelief at those passing numbers (even if like jwvolley said she was getting targeted like crazy in the first part of the season), given how radically different her passing responsibilities were at Texas as compared to Nebraska.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:01:53 GMT -5
But when you chose 2 dumps to illustrate that Hames was ignoring Schwarzenbach and, on the second one, it wasn't even possible to set her, it's not a great example of objective analysis. To be fair, my illustration wasn’t that she was ignoring Callie, it was that she was making poor decisions and was being barked at for it from the bench - which was a direct response to, I think, your post about hearing it from the coaching staff. Well, you definitely said she could have set Schwarzenbach on both of those dumps which, having watched the offending play, simply wasn't true. And again, you picked that example, not I! I'm also not going to argue that she makes bad decisions on that play (not setting the back row attack on the second dump was very poor) but Sun was running around with one shoe on and so Hames only had 2 hitters vs 3 blockers and Schwarzenbach wasn't proving much help. My point was, as it's been throughout, that every example is more nuanced than some (not, from what I've seen, you) posters make it out to be and simply using one half-remembered play as an example of Hames' poor play is not an adequate analysis. Edit: Also, since you're talking about her decision making skills, I will add that Hames had 5 total attacks in the match. The two you highlighted were the only ones which didn't find the floor. In total she 'hit' .275 on the year. That's better than the .232 she recorded in 2018 and only slightly below Hunter's senior season (.291).
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