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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:15:02 GMT -5
Wait, what evidence did I get wrong? She passed 350+ balls in each of her first three years. Two of them were spent next to AT LEAST an elite Libero (60%+ GP%) and the last was not. Her good pass percentages across those years were 49.7%, 50% and 38%... You presumably know how much a good Libero does in terms of communication on each serve (seams, show & go etc). That's the point I was making. I don't get what you're trying to "point out" to me? My point is, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for 66% of the year (Rounsaville subbed in for her). And she only passed next to McCoy for 1 rotation for 66% of the year. So these statements (ignoring the JWO part) are a bit misleading, considering how different her passing responsibilities were at Texas. Her passing "next to" Rounsaville or McCoy is radically different than her passing next to Foecke, Maloney, Knuckles or Kubik. That's all. Sun had a really poor year passing. She dropped from 50% good pass percentage in 2018 to just 38% in 2019. She got used to passing next to the likes of JWO, Foecke and Maloney. A second year with this unit will definitely help but as a senior she needs to be more consistent for the younger players. True. Swap JWO for McCoy and Rounsaville who were ~60% gp% in 2017. Same point though. That being said, still in a bit of disbelief at those passing numbers (even if like jwvolley said she was getting targeted like crazy in the first part of the season), given how radically different her passing responsibilities were at Texas as compared to Nebraska. I think you're overreaching a bit. I was pointing out that with experienced passers beside her, she's proven to be serviceable in SR. As I'm sure you know, a top Libero takes so much more responsibility in SR that whether or not you're physically next to them in the formation, they make your task easier. This past season, without a top class ball control player & an experienced passing unit, she fell from 50% to 38%. We can get into the weeds with an in-depth analysis of her responsibilities in each Ro in regards to her seams (front/back - left/right) if you really want to, but I fear we might end up getting the thread locked... Beyond that I made the point I was trying to make about Sun's passing limitations several posts ago. I'm sure the goal for Cook & co. is to get a better unit around her so she can get back to the 50% mark she held through her first two seasons. I get that you're surprised by the data - Sun (358) actually passed 26 balls more than Rounsaville (332). Given what started this conversation, I think that's more evidence for checking with the data before making any sweeping statements (especially when it comes to passing). What's the saying; "Don't trust your lying eyes"? If you don't believe the data, that's fine - I know there are others with VM accounts on here who can verify, but I assure you those are the numbers.
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Post by donut on Apr 13, 2020 18:47:10 GMT -5
My point is, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for 66% of the year (Rounsaville subbed in for her). And she only passed next to McCoy for 1 rotation for 66% of the year. So these statements (ignoring the JWO part) are a bit misleading, considering how different her passing responsibilities were at Texas. Her passing "next to" Rounsaville or McCoy is radically different than her passing next to Foecke, Maloney, Knuckles or Kubik. That's all. That being said, still in a bit of disbelief at those passing numbers (even if like jwvolley said she was getting targeted like crazy in the first part of the season), given how radically different her passing responsibilities were at Texas as compared to Nebraska. I think you're overreaching a bit. I was pointing out that with experienced passers beside her, she's proven to be serviceable in SR. As I'm sure you know, a top Libero takes so much more responsibility in SR that whether or not you're physically next to them in the formation, they make your task easier. This past season, without a top class ball control player & an experienced passing unit, she fell from 50% to 38%. We can get into the weeds with an in-depth analysis of her responsibilities in each Ro in regards to her seams (front/back - left/right) if you really want to, but I fear we might end up getting the thread locked... Beyond that I made the point I was trying to make about Sun's passing limitations several posts ago. I'm sure the goal for Cook & co. is to get a better unit around her so she can get back to the 50% mark she held through her first two seasons. I get that you're surprised by the data - Sun (358) actually passed 26 balls more than Rounsaville (332). Given what started this conversation, I think that's more evidence for checking with the data before making any sweeping statements (especially when it comes to passing). What's the saying; "Don't trust your lying eyes"? If you don't believe the data, that's fine - I know there are others with VM accounts on here who can verify, but I assure you those are the numbers. I think it's a reach to compare Rounsaville/McCoy to Foecke/Maloney (especially Rousaville). When the JWO snafu was brought to your attention, I wouldn't have tried to substitute those 2 for her. I think their impact (given her responsibilities that year and the fact it was 3 years ago at a different school) on her passing is negligible now. Plus, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for most of the year. I'm happy to admit I underestimated how many balls she passed. That means she either 1) was highly targeted during the 11 matches she had more "typical" 6-rotation OH passing responsibilities, or 2) she was highly targeted in the 1 rotation she passed the other 19 games, or 3) some combination of the two (the likely scenario). To be frank, I wouldn't try to pull some large life lesson from this about data and "sweeping statements," because I think that's a bit of an ironic can of worms for you to start opening.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:48:17 GMT -5
He didn’t remember the serving team because it had nothing to do with his example of Hames’ poor decision making *in transition*. He didn't remember the pass because, unless you're trying to, people usually don't remember passes. They remember shanks or aces. He didn't MENTION the pass because it had nothing to do with his example... But I then used that example - a point of his choosing - to illustrate how poor we are at remembering the first contact on individual plays. Again, I'm not attacking Hawk Attack . I like his posts. But this isn't a new phenomena. I'd like to see the GP% posted in the box score like the hitting percentage because at least then it'd give some basic info. Maybe that's something you can do in the fall for top-25 matchups in match threads. That would be valuable to a lot of fans, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 18:55:39 GMT -5
That's pretty arbitrary. We use a graphic from the Wisconsin/Stanford championship match to point out blocking schemes and in the photo series I know it was an OOS in transition and if you asked me who set it - Gray or Hentz - I wouldn't know the answer. I remember Albrecht chasing down an attack into the bench but if you asked me any other details - who sent the ball back over the net, who hit the ball to start the scramble play, or even what team they were playing - I wouldn't know the answer. Saying things like "people usually don't remember passes" and insisting therefore you cannot adequately evaluate a setter's performance over a season is, I think, a reach. It's helpful to bear in mind... but we also see what's happening in front of us. And if it's not good then it's just not good. You can shift blame around for it but the end result is still what it is. Again, because I apparently WASN'T clear, I'm not saying you can't evaluate Hames. I'm saying that, in order to do so fairly, you need to take first contact into account. That should include digs then too, yes? The opinion fans have of Hames might have to do with her decision-making, location, tempo, etc. in transition as well -- might be an important factor here that we're overlooking. Nebraska dug nearly as many balls as they passed last season.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 19:08:42 GMT -5
I think you're overreaching a bit. I was pointing out that with experienced passers beside her, she's proven to be serviceable in SR. As I'm sure you know, a top Libero takes so much more responsibility in SR that whether or not you're physically next to them in the formation, they make your task easier. This past season, without a top class ball control player & an experienced passing unit, she fell from 50% to 38%. We can get into the weeds with an in-depth analysis of her responsibilities in each Ro in regards to her seams (front/back - left/right) if you really want to, but I fear we might end up getting the thread locked... Beyond that I made the point I was trying to make about Sun's passing limitations several posts ago. I'm sure the goal for Cook & co. is to get a better unit around her so she can get back to the 50% mark she held through her first two seasons. I get that you're surprised by the data - Sun (358) actually passed 26 balls more than Rounsaville (332). Given what started this conversation, I think that's more evidence for checking with the data before making any sweeping statements (especially when it comes to passing). What's the saying; "Don't trust your lying eyes"? If you don't believe the data, that's fine - I know there are others with VM accounts on here who can verify, but I assure you those are the numbers. I think it's a reach to compare Rounsaville/McCoy to Foecke/Maloney (especially Rousaville). When the JWO snafu was brought to your attention, I wouldn't have tried to substitute those 2 for her. I think their impact (given her responsibilities that year and the fact it was 3 years ago at a different school) on her passing is negligible now. Plus, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for most of the year. I'm happy to admit I underestimated how many balls she passed. That means she either 1) was highly targeted during the 11 matches she had more "typical" 6-rotation OH passing responsibilities, or 2) she was highly targeted in the 1 rotation she passed the other 19 games, or 3) some combination of the two (the likely scenario). To be frank, I wouldn't try to pull some large life lesson from this about data and "sweeping statements," because I think that's a bit of an ironic can of worms for you to start opening. Ok and now you're back to contradicting the data. McCoy and Rounsaville in 2017 had BETTER passing stats than Maloney and Foecke did in 2018. And Rounsaville had the best GP% of the four. Maybe just quit while you're behind?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 19:10:40 GMT -5
He didn't remember the pass because, unless you're trying to, people usually don't remember passes. They remember shanks or aces. He didn't MENTION the pass because it had nothing to do with his example... But I then used that example - a point of his choosing - to illustrate how poor we are at remembering the first contact on individual plays. Again, I'm not attacking Hawk Attack . I like his posts. But this isn't a new phenomena. I'd like to see the GP% posted in the box score like the hitting percentage because at least then it'd give some basic info. Maybe that's something you can do in the fall for top-25 matchups in match threads. That would be valuable to a lot of fans, I think. Depending on time (right now I have a ton for obvious reasons) I might actually be able to do that in association with one of the match thread posters.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 19:16:49 GMT -5
Again, because I apparently WASN'T clear, I'm not saying you can't evaluate Hames. I'm saying that, in order to do so fairly, you need to take first contact into account. That should include digs then too, yes? The opinion fans have of Hames might have to do with her decision-making, location, tempo, etc. in transition as well -- might be an important factor here that we're overlooking. Nebraska dug nearly as many balls as they passed last season. For sure, a full analysis would include where she liked to go in each rotation, both FBSO and in transition, including any tendencies that could be exploited. I'm currently devising fake scouting reports for our team as a quiz of sorts, to give them some film study to do during this period. So maybe I'll throw in a Nebraska match and be able to spend a bit longer on her.
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Post by donut on Apr 13, 2020 19:23:13 GMT -5
I think it's a reach to compare Rounsaville/McCoy to Foecke/Maloney (especially Rousaville). When the JWO snafu was brought to your attention, I wouldn't have tried to substitute those 2 for her. I think their impact (given her responsibilities that year and the fact it was 3 years ago at a different school) on her passing is negligible now. Plus, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for most of the year. I'm happy to admit I underestimated how many balls she passed. That means she either 1) was highly targeted during the 11 matches she had more "typical" 6-rotation OH passing responsibilities, or 2) she was highly targeted in the 1 rotation she passed the other 19 games, or 3) some combination of the two (the likely scenario). To be frank, I wouldn't try to pull some large life lesson from this about data and "sweeping statements," because I think that's a bit of an ironic can of worms for you to start opening. Ok and now you're back to contradicting the data. McCoy and Rounsaville in 2017 passed BETTER than Maloney and Foecke did in 2018. And Rounsaville had the best GP% of the four. Maybe just quit while you're behind? You're missing the point. Where did I say Maloney and Foecke had better passing numbers? I'm talking about a difference that you won't find in your passing data. The difference is Sun spent significantly more time in passing rotations next to Maloney and Foecke, then she did next to McCoy and (especially) Rounsaville. She didn't even pass next to Rounsaville for the majority of the year, so all of your points about communication, and back-row chemistry, expertise etc., are highly irrelevant for her when talking about her effect on Sun. Overall, I don't think McCoy or Rounsaville had much, if any, affect on her passing drop off last year, especially as compared to Foecke or Maloney. But I'm done, this isn't important.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 19:39:26 GMT -5
Ok and now you're back to contradicting the data. McCoy and Rounsaville in 2017 passed BETTER than Maloney and Foecke did in 2018. And Rounsaville had the best GP% of the four. Maybe just quit while you're behind? You're missing the point. Where did I say Maloney and Foecke had better passing numbers? I'm talking about a difference that you won't find in your passing data. The difference is Sun spent significantly more time in passing rotations next to Maloney and Foecke, then she did next to McCoy and (especially) Rounsaville. She didn't even pass next to Rounsaville for the majority of the year, so all of your points about communication, and back-row chemistry, expertise etc., are highly irrelevant for her when talking about her effect on Sun. Overall, I don't think McCoy or Rounsaville had much, if any, affect on her passing drop off last year, especially as compared to Foecke or Maloney. But I'm done, this isn't important. What? I'm saying that the presence of an elite ball control Libero (Maloney or McCoy) makes life easier for every player in the formation -- whether they are next to her or not -- that's pretty basic stuff. Elite Liberos take more floor, communicate better and read better in SR, making things easier for every passer. You get that, I'm sure. Knuckles couldn't do that this year (not surprising) but the drop off from her previous two Liberos adversely affected Sun.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 13, 2020 20:49:09 GMT -5
You're missing the point. Where did I say Maloney and Foecke had better passing numbers? I'm talking about a difference that you won't find in your passing data. The difference is Sun spent significantly more time in passing rotations next to Maloney and Foecke, then she did next to McCoy and (especially) Rounsaville. She didn't even pass next to Rounsaville for the majority of the year, so all of your points about communication, and back-row chemistry, expertise etc., are highly irrelevant for her when talking about her effect on Sun. Overall, I don't think McCoy or Rounsaville had much, if any, affect on her passing drop off last year, especially as compared to Foecke or Maloney. But I'm done, this isn't important. What? I'm saying that the presence of an elite ball control Libero (Maloney or McCoy) makes life easier for every player in the formation -- whether they are next to her or not -- that's pretty basic stuff. Elite Liberos take more floor, communicate better and read better in SR, making things easier for every passer. You get that, I'm sure. Knuckles couldn't do that this year (not surprising) but the drop off from her previous two Liberos adversely affected Sun. Seriously, in your own view, is the reason that Sun passed worse because of the loss of a good libero an objective truth, a deduction, an inference, an opinion, the most likely explanation, or some other characterization of your choice?
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Post by vup on Apr 13, 2020 21:01:02 GMT -5
Why are our passers getting compared to Texas' passers? Ewwww.
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Post by ay2013 on Apr 13, 2020 21:03:31 GMT -5
I think it's a reach to compare Rounsaville/McCoy to Foecke/Maloney (especially Rousaville). When the JWO snafu was brought to your attention, I wouldn't have tried to substitute those 2 for her. I think their impact (given her responsibilities that year and the fact it was 3 years ago at a different school) on her passing is negligible now. Plus, she didn't pass next to Rounsaville for most of the year. I'm happy to admit I underestimated how many balls she passed. That means she either 1) was highly targeted during the 11 matches she had more "typical" 6-rotation OH passing responsibilities, or 2) she was highly targeted in the 1 rotation she passed the other 19 games, or 3) some combination of the two (the likely scenario). To be frank, I wouldn't try to pull some large life lesson from this about data and "sweeping statements," because I think that's a bit of an ironic can of worms for you to start opening. Ok and now you're back to contradicting the data. McCoy and Rounsaville in 2017 had BETTER passing stats than Maloney and Foecke did in 2018. And Rounsaville had the best GP% of the four. Maybe just quit while you're behind? Having just read these one or two posts, it doesn’t seem wholly appropriate to compare Texas 2017 to Nebraska 2018 because the quality of average opponent was significantly in Nebraska’s favor. Even taking out the fact that Texas played in the Big 12, which was pretty down that year, their preseason also wasn’t that top heavy. Regardless of whether or not who actually is the better passer, I suspect the Texas duo to have better passing stats than the Nebraska duo in 2018 based exclusively on strength of opponent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 21:12:55 GMT -5
Ok and now you're back to contradicting the data. McCoy and Rounsaville in 2017 had BETTER passing stats than Maloney and Foecke did in 2018. And Rounsaville had the best GP% of the four. Maybe just quit while you're behind? Having just read these one or two posts, it doesn’t seem wholly appropriate to compare Texas 2017 to Nebraska 2018 because the quality of average opponent was significantly in Nebraska’s favor. Even taking out the fact that Texas played in the Big 12, which was pretty down that year, their preseason also wasn’t that top heavy. Regardless of whether or not who actually is the better passer, I suspect the Texas duo to have better passing stats than the Nebraska duo in 2018 based exclusively on strength of opponent. I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. The point is simply that, based on her career thus far, it seems reasonable to characterize Sun as a competent passer when she's in a good unit (both Texas 2017 and Nebraska 2018 qualify) and but she fell dramatically from her previous standard when she didn't have, specifically, a high level ball control Libero on the floor. For the record, John Cook tried to bring in an elite ball control Libero over the holidays with a full scholarship. It's funny that some Nebraska fans would hunt for an insult in here.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 13, 2020 21:28:22 GMT -5
Having just read these one or two posts, it doesn’t seem wholly appropriate to compare Texas 2017 to Nebraska 2018 because the quality of average opponent was significantly in Nebraska’s favor. Even taking out the fact that Texas played in the Big 12, which was pretty down that year, their preseason also wasn’t that top heavy. Regardless of whether or not who actually is the better passer, I suspect the Texas duo to have better passing stats than the Nebraska duo in 2018 based exclusively on strength of opponent. I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. The point is simply that, based on her career thus far, it seems reasonable to characterize Sun as a competent passer when she's in a good unit (both Texas 2017 and Nebraska 2018 qualify) and but she fell dramatically from her previous standard when she have, specifically, a high level ball control Libero on the floor. For the record, John Cook tried to bring in an elite ball control Libero over the holidays with a full scholarship. It's funny that some Nebraska fans would hunt for an insult in here. I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 21:30:24 GMT -5
I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. The point is simply that, based on her career thus far, it seems reasonable to characterize Sun as a competent passer when she's in a good unit (both Texas 2017 and Nebraska 2018 qualify) and but she fell dramatically from her previous standard when she have, specifically, a high level ball control Libero on the floor. For the record, John Cook tried to bring in an elite ball control Libero over the holidays with a full scholarship. It's funny that some Nebraska fans would hunt for an insult in here. I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why. Great points!!
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