Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 21:48:42 GMT -5
Having just read these one or two posts, it doesn’t seem wholly appropriate to compare Texas 2017 to Nebraska 2018 because the quality of average opponent was significantly in Nebraska’s favor. Even taking out the fact that Texas played in the Big 12, which was pretty down that year, their preseason also wasn’t that top heavy. Regardless of whether or not who actually is the better passer, I suspect the Texas duo to have better passing stats than the Nebraska duo in 2018 based exclusively on strength of opponent. I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. Actually, in his defense, you got confused about Sun passing next to JWO, which was probably an honest error, but then said that she passed next to Rounsaville at Texas -- he corrected you: Sun didn't pass next to Rounsaville for a significant portion of the season as Rounsaville became Sun's back row sub. She passed with White and McCoy.
|
|
|
Post by jwvolley on Apr 13, 2020 21:50:19 GMT -5
I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. The point is simply that, based on her career thus far, it seems reasonable to characterize Sun as a competent passer when she's in a good unit (both Texas 2017 and Nebraska 2018 qualify) and but she fell dramatically from her previous standard when she have, specifically, a high level ball control Libero on the floor. For the record, John Cook tried to bring in an elite ball control Libero over the holidays with a full scholarship. It's funny that some Nebraska fans would hunt for an insult in here. I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why. I mean could one not also argue that Carlini’s hitters suddenly getting much better also is just a data point and we don’t ACTUALLY know she was the reason/cause? Isn’t drawing any of these types of conclusions, by nature, deductive reasoning?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 22:06:40 GMT -5
I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why. I mean could one not also argue that Carlini’s hitters suddenly getting much better also is just a data point and we don’t ACTUALLY know she was the reason/cause? Isn’t drawing any of these types of conclusions, by nature, deductive reasoning? No nope too far WRONG TOPIC. Delete this immediately
|
|
|
Post by jwvolley on Apr 13, 2020 22:11:18 GMT -5
I mean could one not also argue that Carlini’s hitters suddenly getting much better also is just a data point and we don’t ACTUALLY know she was the reason/cause? Isn’t drawing any of these types of conclusions, by nature, deductive reasoning? No nope too far WRONG TOPIC. Delete this immediately Then correct me. Why is "correlation ≠ casuation" a good point here and not applicable in other areas of the game? In fact, let me edit my example. Is it ok to say (pretty much universally) that Franti had a great year hitting in 2014 in part because she was surrounded by other great hitters but it isn't acceptable to say Sun was better passing when she was surrounded by better passers?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 22:20:25 GMT -5
I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. Actually, in his defense, you got confused about Sun passing next to JWO, which was probably an honest error, but then said that she passed next to Rounsaville at Texas -- he corrected you: Sun didn't pass next to Rounsaville for a significant portion of the season as Rounsaville became Sun's back row sub. She passed with White and McCoy. Obviously it was an "honest" error... Did you think it was a malicious lie? But with regards to Sun's SR responsibilities McCoy and Maloney are interchangeable. Point is simple: next to a good ball control Libero Sun gets pinched and had less floor to cover. She had that with both 2017 Texas and 2018 Nebraska. If you want to know more, I'll explain in greater detail in the next reply.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 22:22:44 GMT -5
No nope too far WRONG TOPIC. Delete this immediately Then correct me. Why is "correlation ≠ casuation" a good point here and not applicable in other areas of the game? In fact, let me edit my example. Is it ok to say (pretty much universally) that Franti had a great year hitting in 2014 in part because she was surrounded by other great hitters but it isn't acceptable to say Sun was better passing when she was surrounded by better passers? Sweetie listen. I'm saying that we don't need to broach that topic with a Carlini reference because I'm already too mentally fragile as it is right now ok?
|
|
|
Post by jwvolley on Apr 13, 2020 22:25:20 GMT -5
Then correct me. Why is "correlation ≠ casuation" a good point here and not applicable in other areas of the game? In fact, let me edit my example. Is it ok to say (pretty much universally) that Franti had a great year hitting in 2014 in part because she was surrounded by other great hitters but it isn't acceptable to say Sun was better passing when she was surrounded by better passers? Sweetie listen. I'm saying that we don't need to broach that topic with a Carlini reference because I'm already too mentally fragile as it is right now ok? Ugh fine, let's just find tango so we can unite against the Carlini basher
|
|
|
Post by HuskerPower1 on Apr 13, 2020 22:36:04 GMT -5
Am I in the right thread? It says I’m in the Husker Recruiting Thread but I see the last 10 pages are full of garbage that doesn’t pertain to NU recruiting at all. What gives?
|
|
|
Post by rjaege on Apr 13, 2020 22:54:03 GMT -5
Am I in the right thread? It says I’m in the Husker Recruiting Thread but I see the last 10 pages are full of garbage that doesn’t pertain to NU recruiting at all. What gives? Me thinks coronavirus impacts more than your lungs. I agree this ongoing egg vs chicken first discussion (or passing vs setting vs whatever player is the huskers biggest problem area) does not belong in the Husker recruiting thread. Frankly i find it a bit disheartening and at best pointless, at worst counter-productive. Coach Cook and his coaching staff know what needs improvement, are very capable of making needed improvements as best possible, and their track record indicates they are good at it. Me, I'm anxiously awaiting the 2020 season whatever it brings. Also wondering did Hayden Kubik unofficially commit to the Huskers?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 23:03:46 GMT -5
I wasn't actually comparing Texas to Nebraska. I only mentioned their relative stats because (1) the guy I was chatting with suggested Sun didn't pass at Texas or was 'hidden' in SR(2) he seemed to struggle with the fact that McCoy's presence would take pressure off Sun (but apparently accepted that Maloney did) (3) he didn't seem to realise Rounsaville had a good year. The point is simply that, based on her career thus far, it seems reasonable to characterize Sun as a competent passer when she's in a good unit (both Texas 2017 and Nebraska 2018 qualify) and but she fell dramatically from her previous standard when she have, specifically, a high level ball control Libero on the floor. For the record, John Cook tried to bring in an elite ball control Libero over the holidays with a full scholarship. It's funny that some Nebraska fans would hunt for an insult in here. I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why. The guy who quoted you said "great points"... What points? You just asked questions that'd be immediately obvious if you watched the matches. The answers to your questions are, as follows; No, Yes (many times), No (she'd be back to 50% most likely). The data doesn't show why (although anyone with experience in coaching will give you an educated guess just looking at the numbers). You just have to watch ANY match to see why. In 2018 Sun recorded a 50% good pass percentage and Nebraska had an elite ball control Libero in senior Kenzie Maloney. That is not a coincidence. Maloney took pressure off Sun in a multitude of ways. Firstly and most obviously, she takes half the floor when she's passing in Zone 1. You can see this just by skipping through Nebraska in SR. That obviously decreases the amount of floor Sun takes in those rotations. Then, and I'm going to assuming you're actually checking this because you asked the questions, watch Maloney when she's next to Sun, either in Z1 or Z6. See the move she takes towards Sun before the serve? In our gym we call that pinching (there are other terms). She knows Sun is the weakest passer (and the #1 priority) so likely the serving target. Maloney not only takes the 1/6 and 5/6 seams, she's also allowing Sun to release unless the ball is directly at her. Sun doesn't pass well when she has to move (more on that later) so this simplifies things for her greatly and enables her to keep her platform quiet and head still. Lastly, when Maloney is in Z6 and makes an early read on the ball you'll see her move right the way into Z5 to take a ball which is absolutely Sun's ball, simply because she knows she can. The only other spot Maloney can't reach is the far sideline when Sun is in Z5 but that's a risky serve and so Cook will let them try to paint that sideline. Those are a few of the things a good ball control Libero does. Now, onto 2019 and Sun's good pass percentage falls to a anemic 38%. This post isn't a shot at Knuckles. She's a freshman and a very good defender and she's going to get there in SR. But it's impossible to look at the difference from '18 Sun to '19 Sun without noting Knuckles because SR is a unit and the transition from Maloney to Knuckles did have direct impact on Lexi. Watch Knuckles before the serve. See she doesn't make that aggressive move towards Sun when Lexi is passing? That forces Sun to move more because she's responsible for more floor and that's when she struggles. She often ends up off balance when she has to take more than a single step. When she's off-balance she can't adjust to balls that float on her, so she often shanks them. You can also see that there's far more confusion in the seams; at the start of the Hawaii match (Set 1, 3-4) Knuckles is in Z1 and Sun is beside her. The ball is served in the 1/6 seam and if it was 2018 Sun, she doesn't even try to get it. But with Knuckles, instead of Maloney, she's not sure if it's her ball or not, she makes a late move and takes the ball diving to her knees. The exact same thing happens at 26-26 at the end of set 1 and the OOS set results in Kubik getting roofed and Hawaii getting set point. You can also see how much slower Knuckles is to read the serve than Maloney, so she's not able to make the same kind of move in order to take balls that aren't hers. Again, that's not an attack on Knuckles, it's just the difference between a senior and a freshman. The moral of the story is passing is done as a unit. One elite player can make a huge difference to the performance of the others. That's why they're highly sought after. Lexi Sun moved far less and got more help in 2018 and passed a 50% GP. She moved far more and received less help in 2019 and passed a 38% GP. That isn't a stretch or a leap, it's what happened.
|
|
|
Post by volleyguy on Apr 14, 2020 8:31:51 GMT -5
I think most people can accept that the data shows she didn't pass as well last season based on the stats. The problem is corroboration for you conclusion that it was due to composition of the passing unit. Is this affliction unique to Lexi? Or have you observed drop-offs of this magnitude in similar situations? If Fleck had come to Nebraska, would you expect Sun to be passing dimes? The data only shows that she passed worse. It does not establish why. The guy who quoted you said "great points"... What points? You just asked questions that'd be immediately obvious if you watched the matches. The answers to your questions are, as follows; No, Yes (many times), No (she'd be back to 50% most likely). The data doesn't show why (although anyone with experience in coaching will give you an educated guess just looking at the numbers). You just have to watch ANY match to see why. In 2018 Sun recorded a 50% good pass percentage and Nebraska had an elite ball control Libero in senior Kenzie Maloney. That is not a coincidence. Maloney took pressure off Sun in a multitude of ways. Firstly and most obviously, she takes half the floor when she's passing in Zone 1. You can see this just by skipping through Nebraska in SR. That obviously decreases the amount of floor Sun takes in those rotations. Then, and I'm going to assuming you're actually checking this because you asked the questions, watch Maloney when she's next to Sun, either in Z1 or Z6. See the move she takes towards Sun before the serve? In our gym we call that pinching (there are other terms). She knows Sun is the weakest passer (and the #1 priority) so likely the serving target. Maloney not only takes the 1/6 and 5/6 seams, she's also allowing Sun to release unless the ball is directly at her. Sun doesn't pass well when she has to move (more on that later) so this simplifies things for her greatly and enables her to keep her platform quiet and head still. Lastly, when Maloney is in Z6 and makes an early read on the ball you'll see her move right the way into Z5 to take a ball which is absolutely Sun's ball, simply because she knows she can. The only other spot Maloney can't reach is the far sideline when Sun is in Z5 but that's a risky serve and so Cook will let them try to paint that sideline. Those are a few of the things a good ball control Libero does. Now, onto 2019 and Sun's good pass percentage falls to a anemic 38%. This post isn't a shot at Knuckles. She's a freshman and a very good defender and she's going to get there in SR. But it's impossible to look at the difference from '18 Sun to '19 Sun without noting Knuckles because SR is a unit and the transition from Maloney to Knuckles did have direct impact on Lexi. Watch Knuckles before the serve. See she doesn't make that aggressive move towards Sun when Lexi is passing? That forces Sun to move more because she's responsible for more floor and that's when she struggles. She often ends up off balance when she has to take more than a single step. When she's off-balance she can't adjust to balls that float on her, so she often shanks them. You can also see that there's far more confusion in the seams; at the start of the Hawaii match (Set 1, 3-4) Knuckles is in Z1 and Sun is beside her. The ball is served in the 1/6 seam and if it was 2018 Sun, she doesn't even try to get it. But with Knuckles, instead of Maloney, she's not sure if it's her ball or not, she makes a late move and takes the ball diving to her knees. The exact same thing happens at 26-26 at the end of set 1 and the OOS set results in Kubik getting roofed and Hawaii getting set point. You can also see how much slower Knuckles is to read the serve than Maloney, so she's not able to make the same kind of move in order to take balls that aren't hers. Again, that's not an attack on Knuckles, it's just the difference between a senior and a freshman. The moral of the story is passing is done as a unit. One elite player can make a huge difference to the performance of the others. That's why they're highly sought after. Lexi Sun moved far less and got more help in 2018 and passed a 50% GP. She moved far more and received less help in 2019 and passed a 38% GP. That isn't a stretch or a leap, it's what happened. You are correct: the data shows the drop-off happened, but it doesn't show why. That's my point. The fact that you are making an "educated guess" about the reason why her passing dropped of is exactly what you have been accusing others of doing. The only difference is that you believe your educated guesses are more valid. So, I'll ask you again: do you have another example of a passer having such a drop-off in similar circumstances, which would validate your theory about passing as a unit blah blah blah.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 9:24:03 GMT -5
The guy who quoted you said "great points"... What points? You just asked questions that'd be immediately obvious if you watched the matches. The answers to your questions are, as follows; No, Yes (many times), No (she'd be back to 50% most likely). The data doesn't show why (although anyone with experience in coaching will give you an educated guess just looking at the numbers). You just have to watch ANY match to see why. In 2018 Sun recorded a 50% good pass percentage and Nebraska had an elite ball control Libero in senior Kenzie Maloney. That is not a coincidence. Maloney took pressure off Sun in a multitude of ways. Firstly and most obviously, she takes half the floor when she's passing in Zone 1. You can see this just by skipping through Nebraska in SR. That obviously decreases the amount of floor Sun takes in those rotations. Then, and I'm going to assuming you're actually checking this because you asked the questions, watch Maloney when she's next to Sun, either in Z1 or Z6. See the move she takes towards Sun before the serve? In our gym we call that pinching (there are other terms). She knows Sun is the weakest passer (and the #1 priority) so likely the serving target. Maloney not only takes the 1/6 and 5/6 seams, she's also allowing Sun to release unless the ball is directly at her. Sun doesn't pass well when she has to move (more on that later) so this simplifies things for her greatly and enables her to keep her platform quiet and head still. Lastly, when Maloney is in Z6 and makes an early read on the ball you'll see her move right the way into Z5 to take a ball which is absolutely Sun's ball, simply because she knows she can. The only other spot Maloney can't reach is the far sideline when Sun is in Z5 but that's a risky serve and so Cook will let them try to paint that sideline. Those are a few of the things a good ball control Libero does. Now, onto 2019 and Sun's good pass percentage falls to a anemic 38%. This post isn't a shot at Knuckles. She's a freshman and a very good defender and she's going to get there in SR. But it's impossible to look at the difference from '18 Sun to '19 Sun without noting Knuckles because SR is a unit and the transition from Maloney to Knuckles did have direct impact on Lexi. Watch Knuckles before the serve. See she doesn't make that aggressive move towards Sun when Lexi is passing? That forces Sun to move more because she's responsible for more floor and that's when she struggles. She often ends up off balance when she has to take more than a single step. When she's off-balance she can't adjust to balls that float on her, so she often shanks them. You can also see that there's far more confusion in the seams; at the start of the Hawaii match (Set 1, 3-4) Knuckles is in Z1 and Sun is beside her. The ball is served in the 1/6 seam and if it was 2018 Sun, she doesn't even try to get it. But with Knuckles, instead of Maloney, she's not sure if it's her ball or not, she makes a late move and takes the ball diving to her knees. The exact same thing happens at 26-26 at the end of set 1 and the OOS set results in Kubik getting roofed and Hawaii getting set point. You can also see how much slower Knuckles is to read the serve than Maloney, so she's not able to make the same kind of move in order to take balls that aren't hers. Again, that's not an attack on Knuckles, it's just the difference between a senior and a freshman. The moral of the story is passing is done as a unit. One elite player can make a huge difference to the performance of the others. That's why they're highly sought after. Lexi Sun moved far less and got more help in 2018 and passed a 50% GP. She moved far more and received less help in 2019 and passed a 38% GP. That isn't a stretch or a leap, it's what happened. You are correct: the data shows the drop-off happened, but it doesn't show why. That's my point. The fact that you are making an "educated guess" about the reason why her passing dropped of is exactly what you have been accusing others of doing. The only difference is that you believe your educated guesses are more valid. So, I'll ask you again: do you have another example of a passer having such a drop-off in similar circumstances, which would validate your theory about passing as a unit blah blah blah. The above is not an educated guess and it's not a theory. We teach this & use it. I went back and jumped thru several games from both years, specifically watching how they pass as a unit. Seriously, stop asking dumb questions and go compare two matches. I've told you exactly what to look out for. And yes, it happens with every elite passer, unless they (as with JWO - Maloney) are replaced by another elite Bro. It works in reverse obviously too. Since you wanted to know if Fleck would've helped Sun; she replaced the graduating UCSB Libero in 2019 but the other two passers remained the same. Ruddins went from a 1.99 passer in 2018 to 2.13 in 2019. The other starting outside (already a good passer) went from 2.12 to 2.32 which was one of the higher numbers for an OH in the country because she also had fewer responsibilities. But again, we don't need a trend for you to understand this. I just gave you a crash course in how & why a Libero helps. Go compare any Nebraska match from 2018 to 2019.
|
|
|
Post by Kingsley on Apr 14, 2020 9:49:27 GMT -5
Am I in the right thread? It says I’m in the Husker Recruiting Thread but I see the last 10 pages are full of garbage that doesn’t pertain to NU recruiting at all. What gives? Also wondering did Hayden Kubik unofficially commit to the Huskers? She can't give a public verbal commitment until June 15th.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 10:45:15 GMT -5
Also wondering did Hayden Kubik unofficially commit to the Huskers? She can't give a public verbal commitment until June 15th. actual recruiting talk? didn't know we used this thread for that
|
|
|
Post by vup on Apr 14, 2020 11:04:56 GMT -5
She can't give a public verbal commitment until June 15th. actual recruiting talk? didn't know we used this thread for that Yeah! Who's leaking the info??
|
|