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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 1, 2015 19:00:08 GMT -5
How did Muno get Honorable Mention? Somebody voted for her. I didn't see in the rules anything that says you need votes from multiple coaches. If a player gets any points, she gets HM. There is a limit of no more than 18 HMs, so if there were any other votegetters beyond the 18 listed, then Muno must have gotten more points than they did.
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Post by Cruz'n on Dec 1, 2015 19:01:13 GMT -5
We run a 5-1. That is only five hitters. We don't have ANY depth at those hitting positions. Vanjak is NOT going to get an award, given. Burgess was playing hurt all year, is NOT going to get an award. That leaves 3 hitters doing the majority of the work. Likely all three of them, or at least 2, are going to get recognized if they carry Stanford to a decent record. And as for setters, typically only 5-1 setters will get recognized. And typically, if you have a setter good enough to set a 5-1, she will be setting a 5-1. Your team, on the other hand, has about 20 or 30 hitters that are all very very good. Hard for them all to get recognized. There just aren't enough kills to go around when you divide by such a big number? Kapiche? Man, you have a great team. Be happy. You have depth. That is great for the team. But understand what comes WITH that depth. Yes, I know all that. Which is why I have been complaining for a while now that the whole PAC honors system doesn't represent the reality that at least half the teams in the conference are no longer running the traditional 5-1. Heck, the conference honors are still trying to catch up to existence of that newfangled libero rule. There is absolutely no reason that the honors should fall more to players on 5-1 teams just because they are on 5-1 teams, especially when the two co-champs both ran 6-2 systems. Someone who sets 3 rotations will never win SOY over someone who sets 6 rotations, unless there simply are no longer any 5-1 setters, or they are really really bad.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 1, 2015 19:02:35 GMT -5
Yes, I know all that. Which is why I have been complaining for a while now that the whole PAC honors system doesn't represent the reality that at least half the teams in the conference are no longer running the traditional 5-1. Heck, the conference honors are still trying to catch up to existence of that newfangled libero rule. There is absolutely no reason that the honors should fall more to players on 5-1 teams just because they are on 5-1 teams, especially when the two co-champs both ran 6-2 systems. Someone who sets 3 rotations will never win SOY over someone who sets 6 rotations, unless there simply are no longer any 5-1 setters, or they are really really bad. I seem to recall Cassidy Lichtman (deservedly) getting All-PAC even though she set the ball in three rotations.
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Post by dawgnerd on Dec 1, 2015 19:06:13 GMT -5
The stats sure back you up. Here are the digging stats, including the alternative Digs per non-error opponent attack (see yesterday's thread). Name--------------------Team--------Digs/Nonerror Attack--Rank--Digs/Set--Rank Taylor Whittingham-----Southern California----0.157----50---4.73---60 Amanda Benson----------Oregon-----------------0.152----68---4.65---75 Cassie Strickland------Washington-------------0.150----77---4.32---123 Taylor Formico---------UCLA-------------------0.144---110---4.57---86 Whittingham dominates both ways, with Benson and Strickland both well ahead of Formico. This does not account for passing and intangibles, but I was suprised to see Formico there. Perhaps some coaches trying to provide the #4 team a better showing? Maybe the stats on serve receive? Formico dominates. Perhaps, and the Pac12 coaches would be the best judges of that. If they actually judged her that much better in that aspect than these others, that would be a good reason. It is unfortunate that there are no useful box score stats for what may be the most critical event in a volleyball offense.
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Post by Cruz'n on Dec 1, 2015 19:07:03 GMT -5
The real travesty here is Whittingham garnering no awards. I get liberos get overlooked but both Formic and Strickland get awards and Whittingham only HM. USC doesn't have the same success without her. The stats sure back you up. Here are the digging stats, including the alternative Digs per non-error opponent attack (see yesterday's thread). Name--------------------Team--------Digs/Nonerror Attack--Rank--Digs/Set--Rank Taylor Whittingham-----Southern California----0.157----50---4.73---60 Amanda Benson----------Oregon-----------------0.152----68---4.65---75 Cassie Strickland------Washington-------------0.150----77---4.32---123 Taylor Formico---------UCLA-------------------0.144---110---4.57---86 Whittingham dominates both ways, with Benson and Strickland both well ahead of Formico. This does not account for passing and intangibles, but I was suprised to see Formico there. Perhaps some coaches trying to provide the #4 team a better showing? Digging is just one stat. Formico was 4-year setter in HS, and great setter, has great hands. Also, there is no stat for running down balls for the second touch. Formico is faster than the other three in this list. Also passing is crucial. Don't get caught up in thinking digging is only important aspect of being a libero, and thus leading digger will lead award.
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Post by ay2013 on Dec 1, 2015 19:07:28 GMT -5
Someone who sets 3 rotations will never win SOY over someone who sets 6 rotations, unless there simply are no longer any 5-1 setters, or they are really really bad. I seem to recall Cassidy Lichtman (deservedly) getting All-PAC even though she set the ball in three rotations. she also played 3 front row rotations too, hitting. IMO if Tanner played 6 rotations for the entire year, she's be all conference too.
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Post by zenyada on Dec 1, 2015 19:09:58 GMT -5
The stats sure back you up. Here are the digging stats, including the alternative Digs per non-error opponent attack (see yesterday's thread). Name--------------------Team--------Digs/Nonerror Attack--Rank--Digs/Set--Rank Taylor Whittingham-----Southern California----0.157----50---4.73---60 Amanda Benson----------Oregon-----------------0.152----68---4.65---75 Cassie Strickland------Washington-------------0.150----77---4.32---123 Taylor Formico---------UCLA-------------------0.144---110---4.57---86 Whittingham dominates both ways, with Benson and Strickland both well ahead of Formico. This does not account for passing and intangibles, but I was suprised to see Formico there. Perhaps some coaches trying to provide the #4 team a better showing? Maybe the stats on serve receive? Formico dominates. Like others have commented, maybe add second ball setting, block coverage, serving. Probably a position where observation trumps a .20 spread in statistics for 1-4 which do not provide a complete picture. Not to suggest Whittingham is light in any of these areas, on the contrary, she improved immensely and had a terriffic year.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 1, 2015 19:12:49 GMT -5
I seem to recall Cassidy Lichtman (deservedly) getting All-PAC even though she set the ball in three rotations. she also played 3 front row rotations too, hitting. IMO if Tanner played 6 rotations for the entire year, she's be all conference too. Yes, that's the point. Cardfan is saying that a 6-2 setter will never get SOY over a 5-1 setter, and he's probably right. Which, IMO, is more of an indication that the criteria used for the award is problematic than it is that the 5-1 setter is automatically a better setter than a 6-2 setter.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 1, 2015 19:20:30 GMT -5
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Post by FOBRA on Dec 1, 2015 19:25:15 GMT -5
Maybe the stats on serve receive? Formico dominates. Perhaps, and the Pac12 coaches would be the best judges of that. If they actually judged her that much better in that aspect than these others, that would be a good reason. It is unfortunate that there are no useful box score stats for what may be the most critical event in a volleyball offense. Stats in Conference (plus some serve/receive stats) Dig % DPS RE Aces Service Errors 0.149 4.46 24 22 61 0.151 4.86 11 10 14 0.153 4.72 10 10 30 0.147 4.64 41 4 25
Pretty close overall. I had Strickland/Formico/Whittingham all on my list for 1st team.
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Post by hammer on Dec 1, 2015 20:02:37 GMT -5
Perhaps, and the Pac12 coaches would be the best judges of that. If they actually judged her that much better in that aspect than these others, that would be a good reason. It is unfortunate that there are no useful box score stats for what may be the most critical event in a volleyball offense. Stats in Conference (plus some serve/receive stats) Dig % DPS RE Aces Service Errors 0.149 4.46 24 22 61 0.151 4.86 11 10 14 0.153 4.72 10 10 30 0.147 4.64 41 4 25
Pretty close overall. I had Strickland/Formico/Whittingham all on my list for 1st team. I really don't use normal statistics when grading the L position. You need to really dig deeper (pardon the pun). DPS IMO is almost useless because you could be trolling for balls in the middle back picking up freebies coming off the block. SE's and aces aren't great stats either, much better is points scored per serve, but even that is hardly perfect. What I look for is passing quality vs serve difficulty, ability to dig cross court rockets and quality of passes off those rockets, quality of free ball passes because nothing is more irritating to a coach than a lollipop that is not converted into a high quality scoring chance. There is also tip coverage read and recovery, ability to run down balls, which I call range, and overhead two hand recovery. And let's not forget buttery soft hands for setting (usually emergency) balls when the setter has made contact one. Some people thing leadership is big, but I put that pretty far down the list as actions speak volumes. I could go on into further detail like posture and reaction times, but you get the drift.
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Post by Disc808 on Dec 1, 2015 20:20:56 GMT -5
Formico had phenomenal digs, oftentimes controlling the ball well
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Post by jetblocked on Dec 1, 2015 20:46:17 GMT -5
The real travesty here is Whittingham garnering no awards. I get liberos get overlooked but both Formic and Strickland get awards and Whittingham only HM. USC doesn't have the same success without her. The stats sure back you up. Here are the digging stats, including the alternative Digs per non-error opponent attack (see yesterday's thread). Name--------------------Team--------Digs/Nonerror Attack--Rank--Digs/Set--Rank Taylor Whittingham-----Southern California----0.157----50---4.73---60 Amanda Benson----------Oregon-----------------0.152----68---4.65---75 Cassie Strickland------Washington-------------0.150----77---4.32---123 Taylor Formico---------UCLA-------------------0.144---110---4.57---86 Whittingham dominates both ways, with Benson and Strickland both well ahead of Formico. This does not account for passing and intangibles, but I was suprised to see Formico there. Perhaps some coaches trying to provide the #4 team a better showing? It's based off of pac12 play and Formico lead in conference play. The travesty is how Whitingham didn't get an award. Her and Formico were the most consistent by far. Each had 11 Reception Errors in conference play and were 1 and 2 in digs per set. Stickland had 21 reception errors on the year which almost doubles both Formico and Whitingham on reception errors and was number 4 in digs per set. Quite frankly I don't see why she was even in the conversation. Whitingham and Formico were the outright 1 and 2 Liberos.
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Post by hammer on Dec 1, 2015 21:22:31 GMT -5
Formico had phenomenal digs, oftentimes controlling the ball well She probably best meets my criteria (good to great on all), some of which I posted above. One i forgot to mention was one arm ball hawking and she is the Pac-12 king (or queen) in that department.
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Post by greenpier on Dec 1, 2015 22:21:53 GMT -5
Congratulations POY: Samantha Bricio FOY: Hayley Hodson SOY: Madi Bugg LOY: Taylor Formico COY: Mick Haley
Love to watch Bricio and Formico play and compete.
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