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Post by swim4life107 on May 21, 2016 19:46:00 GMT -5
LOL @ no USA men teams in the finals. Jeez Kerri and April are really the one and only world class team holding it down for the USA. Phil and Nick go in and out of looking like they are the ones. I'd be nice if they made the medal rounds in Rio but I'm expecting some !!!!###$$$!!!ery.
As for Jen/April, hoping that we get to see them against Top Teams. The only team they have not proven they can beat when healthy is Larissa/Talita, and they've only had one shake at them. They've played both German teams very tight. I'm not really convinced that Agatha/Barbara will be much of a threat. Moreover, when it comes to Kerri Walsh it's just about getting that winning mojo back. It isn't about who they beat, it is about getting in a winning groove. I still expect them to be the "perceived" #1s in Rio.
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Post by haze on May 21, 2016 20:10:14 GMT -5
US is not the creme de la creme in Beach Volleyball anymore. It's only going to get worse moving forward too. Not surprised at all at results (or lack of). The 2nd best US team isn't even attempting to go to Rio.
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Post by guest2 on May 22, 2016 7:46:27 GMT -5
US is not the creme de la creme in Beach Volleyball anymore. It's only going to get worse moving forward too. Not surprised at all at results (or lack of). The 2nd best US team isn't even attempting to go to Rio. Right now we still are, at least in the sense of having the best female player and another in the top 10, and the best male player. But I agree it wont last. Also Phil just doesnt seem that interested. I imagine that means they will play above expectations in the Olympics but losing to Canada on home soil is just disgraceful. |
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Post by haze on May 22, 2016 10:57:24 GMT -5
I don't think on the men's side we are. Right now we have 1 capable team and that's it. I think Dalhauser/Lucena could medal in a loaded field, but they would have to play almost perfectly and they aren't anything close right now. I think Gibbs and Patterson have tapped out. I really love little Crabbs game but I think he has a ways to go as far as consistently but he's young and has a higher ceiling then what he's playing right now. Trevor Crabb is a good solid player but I just don't know about him on a World Class level but he is getting better.
Women's side I love the future. And also obviously team Ross. I think with college, the women's side is going to get a heavy lift as soon as next year. People talk about Claes and Hughes and I love them, but US has someone who's arguably better than Hughes and younger in Sarah Sponcil. That girl is hella salty.
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Post by guest2 on May 22, 2016 11:46:52 GMT -5
I don't think on the men's side we are. Right now we have 1 capable team and that's it. I think Dalhauser/Lucena could medal in a loaded field, but they would have to play almost perfectly and they aren't anything close right now. I think Gibbs and Patterson have tapped out. I really love little Crabbs game but I think he has a ways to go as far as consistently but he's young and has a higher ceiling then what he's playing right now. Trevor Crabb is a good solid player but I just don't know about him on a World Class level but he is getting better. Women's side I love the future. And also obviously team Ross. I think with college, the women's side is going to get a heavy lift as soon as next year. People talk about Claes and Hughes and I love them, but US has someone who's arguably better than Hughes and younger in Sarah Sponcil. That girl is hella salty. Have to agree with everything there. Poor Jake Gibb just never got the timing right. |
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Post by swim4life107 on May 22, 2016 11:56:29 GMT -5
Well I've seen Beach Volleyball cynics say that basically the sport was brought into the Olympics just to give the USA more (gold) medals. If you look at FIVB and World Championship results, Brazil has always kinda been the powerhouse in Beach Volleyball. Yet in the Olympics, they only have 1 Gold in each men and women in 5 attempts. The USA has defo over-performed expectations in Olympics, but we did have the clear #1 Women's and Men's team for a length period of time. I still think the perception that we are THE best is a bit of an illusion because of the success at the Olympics. I think part of the reason we aren't as much of a juggernaut is because the tour has just gotten way deeper. It isn't just US/Brazil teams anymore. China is in the mix. Lots of European Countries are now as well. The talent pool is so deep.
Dalhausser is SO good. I'm still not convinced Lucena is the absolute best partner but then I kinda struggle to think who else he could have picked. Most of the veterans are washed up.
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Post by guest2 on May 22, 2016 12:36:50 GMT -5
Well I've seen Beach Volleyball cynics say that basically the sport was brought into the Olympics just to give the USA more (gold) medals. If you look at FIVB and World Championship results, Brazil has always kinda been the powerhouse in Beach Volleyball. Yet in the Olympics, they only have 1 Gold in each men and women in 5 attempts. The USA has defo over-performed expectations in Olympics, but we did have the clear #1 Women's and Men's team for a length period of time. I still think the perception that we are THE best is a bit of an illusion because of the success at the Olympics. I think part of the reason we aren't as much of a juggernaut is because the tour has just gotten way deeper. It isn't just US/Brazil teams anymore. China is in the mix. Lots of European Countries are now as well. The talent pool is so deep. Dalhausser is SO good. I'm still not convinced Lucena is the absolute best partner but then I kinda struggle to think who else he could have picked. Most of the veterans are washed up. China hasnt been in the mix for a few years. The women's tour right now is very much Brazil and the US with the odd other team sneaking in now and then. The US and Brazil have been the two powerhouses in women's volleyball, but the US has also underperformed in the Olympics. Holly/Nancy and their personal issues were the best team in 1996 but lost, and the US won most of the FIVBs in 2000 but their no. 1 team was hurt in the Olympics. Also Rosie/Gibb twice and Todd/Phil in London did worse than expected, Phil and Todd much worse. Fonoi/Blanton overperformed no doubt, but they are the only US team that did. Blanton/Nygaard for example were supposed to do well and they finished dead last in 2004. Youngs/Branagh in 2008 didnt medal. |
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Post by swim4life107 on May 22, 2016 13:00:19 GMT -5
EY and Nicole also weren't a Top 4 team. So them finishing in 5th isn't underperforming. In fact, they would have had to overperform to get a medal, which is what EY and Holly did in 2004.
Also yes, Rosie/Gibb could have medaled either time. They certainly weren't expected to. Todd/Phil were a high seed in London thanks to their 2011 results, but the evidence was there that they fell from a cliff. Pre-Athens is admittedly a huge blind spot for me, but I know Dain's Gold was a shock and I know Karch was a favorite, but they weren't the best team.
I think 2012 proves my point more about US/Brazil. Brazil had the clear #1s on both sides, and they got a silver and bronze (and BARELY so for Juliana/Larissa). April/Jen were pretty much complete career long pigeons to all Top 3 teams, and they somehow made the Gold Medal match. Larissa and Julianna ALWAYS beat them and they were on a roll that tournament heading into that match. Kerri/Misty were taking losses they weren't use to taking in the 1.5 year stretch before London. They finally seemed to be on a roll heading in but they had taken a few bad losses to China on the chin and were constantly getting just barely clipped by Juliana/Larissa (although I think they finally comprehensively beat them in their last match. Moreover though, their loss in the World Championships was a mental scar that could have reared its ugly head had they met in London).
Again, just look at World Championships and FIVB results. It certainly doesn't support the idea that the US underperforms in Olympics....lol. We have 6 out of 10 potential Gold medals (and there are a couple of bronze and silvers in there to boot). I'm not exactly sure what more you thought we should have won when there is another powerhouse country in the sport. We certainly have left Gold medals on the table in indoors, but that is another conversation.
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Post by guest2 on May 22, 2016 14:53:23 GMT -5
Most of this is simply wrong about history. EY and Nicole also weren't a Top 4 team. So them finishing in 5th isn't underperforming. In fact, they would have had to overperform to get a medal, which is what EY and Holly did in 2004. EY and Holly were the third best team in 2004 and it wasnt close. They won two events in 8 tournaments. They didn't overperform by any meansAlso yes, Rosie/Gibb could have medaled either time. They certainly weren't expected to. Again not correct. In 2012, in the four Grand Slams leading to the Olympics Sean/Jake won Rome, won Gstaad, finished second in Berlin and third in Klagenfurt. They were the no. 1 team on tour that year Todd/Phil were a high seed in London thanks to their 2011 results, but the evidence was there that they fell from a cliff. This is also wrong. Phil and Todd won two events in 2012 leading to the Olympics. Pre-Athens is admittedly a huge blind spot for me, but I know Dain's Gold was a shock and I know Karch was a favorite, but they weren't the best team. This is egregiously wrong. Kiraly/Steffes weren't the best team? They were probably the best team ever. If a non-American team had won that year it would have been the biggest upset in BVB history. A few people may have thought Dodd/Whitmarsh would win, but no one who knew anything about BVB expected a non-US team to win.I think 2012 proves my point more about US/Brazil. Brazil had the clear #1s on both sides, and they got a silver and bronze (and BARELY so for Juliana/Larissa). No they didnt have the clear no. 1 on both sides. The no. 1 men's team in 2012 was Gibb/Rosie, who were more or less even with Allison/Emmanuel as were Phil and Todd. A team that wins 20% of the time is not underperforming when they finish 2nd. On the women's side they had the points number 1, but Kerri/Misty were favorites going inAgain, just look at World Championships and FIVB results. It certainly doesn't support the idea that the US underperforms in Olympics....lol. We have 6 out of 10 potential Gold medals (and there are a couple of bronze and silvers in there to boot). I'm not exactly sure what more you thought we should have won when there is another powerhouse country in the sport. We certainly have left Gold medals on the table in indoors, but that is another conversation. The US in four of those Olympics were huge favorites (1996 Men, 2008 Men, 2004 and 2008 women) In three more they were favorites (2012 Women, 2000 Women, 1996 Women) and in one there were two US teams and one Brazilian that were co-favorites, (2012 Men) they won 6 Golds. We left medals on the table through injuries or bad chemistry or poor play in 2000, 2004 and 2012 Dain/Fonoi are the only US team that medaled when it was unforeseen. |
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Post by swim4life107 on May 22, 2016 16:37:13 GMT -5
1) EY and Holly were seeded 4th. I think 3-5 were interchangable depending on the day. EY & Holly were *barely* clipping Cook in the bronze match before she got injured and had to serve underhand and couldn't swing. They did well to get Bronze. Overperform might be a strong word. It certainly wasn't a lock considering the Top 2 teams were set in stone.
2) Like I said, Gibb & Rosie could have medaled either time. It certainly wasn't a lock or expectation. They certainly shouldn't have lost to LATVIA (although IIRC they lost to them at Worlds the year prior. I remember not being THAT shocked by the loss) but even if they made the medal rounds it wasn't a guarantee. The medal rounds were STACKED, and they didn't have the best of records against the other 3 teams. If you weight both Olympics, they probably should have snuck out 1 bronze like EY did. However, this isn't proof of US underperformance in the Olympics.
3) As for Karch, I said he was A favorite, but it wasn't clear they were the best team at the time because of international play being rare at the time. I never said they weren't a GOAT team. I am simply acknowledging that was the tail end of his dominance.
4) As for 2012, Brazil had the clear #1 on both sides on paper. Not only were they ranked #1, but they were both defending World Champs, had won key Grand Slams in the leadup, and had gotten the best of the majority of their key rivalries coming in. Arguing something different is really just stupid. They were big favorites. It wasn't Misty/Kerri '04/08 levels of clear, but they were the teams to beat. Yes, many people liked Kerri/Misty's chances to win when you consider intangibles. They certainly were expected to medal. For what it was worth, they weren't the bookies choice to win. They certainly did well to win. It wasn't like the result simply met expectations like it did the 2 times prior.
5) As for Phil and Todd, their results fell off a cliff after they dominated international play for the 2 years prior. They won tournaments in 2012, but you also neglected to add they finished on the podium *1* time in the 5 or 6 events leading into the Olympics. A lot of the losses were not good. Todd was pushing 40 then. They barely played a tournament together after. That really tells you all you need to know about what that team had left to give.
Moreover, my original point was that the US does better in Olympics than would otherwise be suggested by World Championships and FIVB results. Brazil has the most World Championships.....BY FAR! The FIVB results are a bit skewed because of the AVP pulls the best US teams depending on the year. I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue. The US has not underperformed. 6 out of 10 Golds and 2 Silver/1 Bronze is kinda bananas when you consider there is a 2-Team Quota and some of our best teams are left home. Also add in the fact that we have a major super power in Brazil where Volleyball is damn near the national sport after Soccer.
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Post by guest2 on May 22, 2016 19:40:03 GMT -5
1) EY and Holly were seeded 4th. I think 3-5 were interchangable depending on the day. EY & Holly were *barely* clipping Cook in the bronze match before she got injured and had to serve underhand and couldn't swing. They did well to get Bronze. Overperform might be a strong word. It certainly wasn't a lock considering the Top 2 teams were set in stone. Think it all you want it doesnt make it true. 3-5 were not interchangeable. When the Olympics started Holly/EY had won roughly 30% of the FIVBs they entered. The other two teams had won 0. Neither were the top two set in stone. The no. 2 team had won 2, EY/Holly had won two2) Like I said, Gibb & Rosie could have medaled either time. It certainly wasn't a lock or expectation. They certainly shouldn't have lost to LATVIA (although IIRC they lost to them at Worlds the year prior. I remember not being THAT shocked by the loss) but even if they made the medal rounds it wasn't a guarantee. The medal rounds were STACKED, and they didn't have the best of records against the other 3 teams. If you weight both Olympics, they probably should have snuck out 1 bronze like EY did. However, this isn't proof of US underperformance in the Olympics. You say it wasnt expected but they were the no.1 team and had medalled in 4 straight Grand Slams. They had beaten Emmanuel/Rego, who you say were a "clear no. 1" 2 of the last 3 times.3) As for Karch, I said he was A favorite, but it wasn't clear they were the best team at the time because of international play being rare at the time. I never said they weren't a GOAT team. I am simply acknowledging that was the tail end of his dominance. Yes it was clear and to say otherwise is idiotic. At the time when top US teams played they won. Carlos Briceno and Jeff Williams, a team with a career AVP high of last was finishing top 3 on the FIVB at the time. Everyone knew an AVP team was winning gold it was only a matter of which one4) As for 2012, Brazil had the clear #1 on both sides on paper. Not only were they ranked #1, but they were both defending World Champs, had won key Grand Slams in the leadup, and had gotten the best of the majority of their key rivalries coming in. Arguing something different is really just stupid. They were big favorites. It wasn't Misty/Kerri '04/08 levels of clear, but they were the teams to beat. Yes, many people liked Kerri/Misty's chances to win when you consider intangibles. They certainly were expected to medal. For what it was worth, they weren't the bookies choice to win. They certainly did well to win. It wasn't like the result simply met expectations like it did the 2 times prior. Of the key Grand Slams in the leadup to 2012, Gibb/Rosie won 2 of 4, the Dutch won one and Brazil won one.5) As for Phil and Todd, their results fell off a cliff after they dominated international play for the 2 years prior. They won tournaments in 2012, but you also neglected to add they finished on the podium *1* time in the 5 or 6 events leading into the Olympics. A lot of the losses were not good. Todd was pushing 40 then. They barely played a tournament together after. That really tells you all you need to know about what that team had left to give. You previously said their no. 1 was the result of play in 2011, now its 2012, but, and the Brazilian results from previous years count, but not Todd/Phil's?
Moreover, my original point was that the US does better in Olympics than would otherwise be suggested by World Championships and FIVB results. Brazil has the most World Championships.....BY FAR! The FIVB results are a bit skewed because of the AVP pulls the best US teams depending on the year. I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue. The US has not underperformed. 6 out of 10 Golds and 2 Silver/1 Bronze is kinda bananas when you consider there is a 2-Team Quota and some of our best teams are left home. Also add in the fact that we have a major super power in Brazil where Volleyball is damn near the national sport after Soccer.Im arguing your point that the US overperforms is not true and the World Championship results/FIVB results are not an accurate indicator. You admit FIVB results are skewed, so you concede that at least one of your criteria is nonsense. Also to say "national sport after soccer" is like saying "preferred swimming medium after water" |
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Post by swim4life107 on May 22, 2016 20:19:48 GMT -5
Listen I'd love to argue with you, but you are just going to keep muddying the water on tedious details and technicalities. I'm not interested.
You still really didn't prove the point that the US has under-performed in Olympics. I don't really buy that Gibb/Rosie missing out on snagging a bronze or 2 proves that.
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Post by haze on May 22, 2016 23:47:46 GMT -5
Guto and Saymon. Damn. 22 year old kids. These damn Brazilians just keep coming out of the woodworks. Look out volleyball world.
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Post by guest2 on May 23, 2016 0:19:37 GMT -5
Listen I'd love to argue with you, but you are just going to keep muddying the water on tedious details and technicalities. I'm not interested. You still really didn't prove the point that the US has under-performed in Olympics. I don't really buy that Gibb/Rosie missing out on snagging a bronze or 2 proves that. 1996 McPeak/Reno seeded second, finished 5th. Thats one medal miss. 2000 May/McPeak and Davis/Johnson-Jordan were the 3rd and 4th ranked teams going in. (Australia got the 1 seed due to home court, but were ranked lower than both US teams who had both made multiple finals and won, which Australia hadnt) Both finished 5th. Two medal misses 2004 Nygaard/Blanton (Seeded 8, projected as medal contender, finished last) 2012 Rogers/Dalhausser (Seeded 2nd, finished 9th) Gibb/Rosie (2nd best team in 2012 coming in, lost to 17 seed) At least three medal misses. |
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Post by beavis on May 23, 2016 2:51:37 GMT -5
Back to the Cinci FIVB thread - some random thoughts about the tournament. The setup was better, in my humble opinion, than most of the recent AVP tourneys held at the Tennis Center in Mason. The biggest reason is that there were actually two really nice courts which were surrounded by bleacher seats on all sides, thus making it much nicer to sit and watch the action at either of those two courts. Nicer electronic scoring at all 4 courts as well, which is likely a result of the AVP's co-sponsorship and them bringing in some of the new equipment that they showed off in New Orleans. Odd, however, that during much of the tournament, the huge new AVP scoreboard, which is apparently meant to take the place of the old handwritten and updated main board (by the way, could Jeff Conover, like Mr. Gage before him, be a much nicer or helpful guy, even when his wife is not doing too well on the court? Nice job with that hire, Mr. Sun!!!) was showing game highlights and live action instead of the brackets and match information. Not a single Donald Sun sighting, by the way (who is even more accessible and always ready for a quick conversation), but I am sure he is a busy guy! Decent but limited food choices - not sure why the main court concession stands, which were always open during AVP events, were not open? Maybe because neither of the two bigger tennis courts were used during this tournament, but it was always kinda nice to have a bunch of restrooms readily accessible as well as the ability to get out of the rain under the stadium court overhangs.
The weather was decent early, really nice on Thursday, really bad on Friday, and chilly and cloudy on Saturday, so the weather was definitely a factor (although nothing like the brutal New Orleans winds). The way the wind was blowing definitely created a good side/bad side, especially on the smallish (2400 capacity I heard) main court on Saturday - it was blowing from end to end instead of across the court sideways. Not sure I will ever get used to the men only matches for 3-4 hrs and then women only for the next 3-4 hours, and I understand that the Saturday semis, bronze and gold medal matches were being shown on some World TV channel, but squeezing everything onto that one court over 10 hours on Saturday kinda blew from a fan perspective. I get it - smaller court looks fuller and thus much better on TV, but if the weather was better on Saturday, my guess is that there would have been a lot of folks without a seat? It was SRO during the morning up thru the Kerri/April win, but really thinned out after that, especially when it was clear that no US men would be in the Final.
As for the play itself, I am getting to be a bigger and bigger Crabb fan at each tournament. The Austrians were jawing at them like crazy, and they just kept coming at them in a businesslike, steady manner - that was cool to watch! I agree that Phil looks somewhat disinterested, and seemed kinda winded at times. His jumper seems to be waning in effectiveness. Mayer was his usual scrambling self, but Doherty seemed even more disinterested and lethargic. Is it me, or does he just seem to take plays (and games) off? And that half-swing seems to be getting easier and easier to read and defend against. I thought Tri and John played well, but you just can't beat father time. The Rogers/Page project is a bit sad to watch as well - I remember one game where Page served the ball like 8-10 feet long 3 times in a row, and I am not sure that even the Professor will be able to bring him along. Overall, I have to agree with other takes on the status of the US men's teams - there just doesn't seem to be anyone even near a Guto/Saymon caliber team waiting in the wings. Can you believe that they are both only 22 and maybe 5th or 6th on the Brazilian depth chart??? The 6'1" Guto is crazy good defending and siding out - what a fun team to watch, and 21-8 in the second game against Canada? HOLY CRAP!
Kerri is still not banging the ball, but the best thing, again in my humble opinion, to ever happen to April was to be able to focus on defense full time. I remember watching she and Jen split block, and thinking that she would likely never be a really effective, top notch defender, but I was wayyyyyy wrong. Her anticipation is crazy good, and there was one play when she was almost in the stands chasing a ball and got it, and the Spaniards then dumped it to the other side of the court on one, and she tracked that ball down as well and completed the rally with a kill - are you kidding??? Her sneaky fast speed is fun to watch, and if Kerri can get back to 75% of her former self, I think they are in good shape to medal in Rio. The US women's depth seems to suffer after them, however. Age has caught up to Jen, and I don't know if Emily is too much of a tweener to ever really blossom. Summer and Lane had flashes of brilliance, but again, is Summer ever a full-time blocker at the highest level? And I am not sure how beat up Brooke's shoulder still is, but Fendy's constant too close-to-the-net sets really exposes them. I know the silver lining is in the continued growth of the NCAA women's beach program, so I sure hope everyone is right that there are some heirs to the Kerri/April throne out there!
Overall, we had a good time despite the chilly weather, but there was one more really funny part. Before the women's medal presentation, there were like 163 guys tasked with hanging the FIVB banner and attaching it to the net poles, and it took them like 20 minutes to get that done - that may well have been the hardest we laughed the whole week!!! I know the Cinci tourneys have suffered from mostly way too hot and muggy conditions over the past few years, but at least there were a couple of decent, partly sunny days this time - I just hope they never have to move everything to Saturday again just for TV purposes, because that is often the only day that most local folks can get to these tournaments I would guess? And c'mon FIVB - let there be ball "kids" instead of only older folks, especially during the early part of the tournament - what a thrill it always seems to be for those kids!
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