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Post by ace35 on May 10, 2020 17:41:31 GMT -5
You get that you arguing against statistics, right? Not against me. These dream teams are almost always chosen as to reflect indexes and statistics, not some subjective criteria or eye test. Which is certainly the case with Karakurt, who had the highest index from among all OH in this season.
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 17:44:32 GMT -5
Cansu played because she is Turkish. She’s obviously not better than Maja. However, both MBH and Gabi are international. Last match against Eciz, Guidetti started Haak at Opp, Maja at setter, leaving only one other international spot which went to MBH directly over Gabi. The reason they split the time because MBH was having a bad game and got subbed out, but she got the nod in the first place. Like I said, in Gui's system, it's irrelevant who starts. What do you mean it’s irrelevant who starts? Are you saying that he won’t put his best 7 players on the floor for a match that determines who wins the league? Also, Karakurt only played against lower ranked teams which is why her stats are so good. She doesn’t see any floor time during the CL or any big match during the national league. Stats don’t lie, but they can be very deceiving
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Post by donut on May 10, 2020 17:59:10 GMT -5
You get that you arguing against statistics, right? Not against me. These dream teams are almost always chosen as to reflect indexes and statistics, not some subjective criteria or eye test. Which is certainly the case with Karakurt, who had the highest index from among all OH in this season. As someone who has spent a lot of time on the Turkish Data Project site... I really wouldn't be using those indices to make arguments about who the best player is... Those indices use an unseen coefficient for each skill, which I've never found listed anywhere. Based on what I've been able to put together (and using the stars at the top), the formula gives serving like quadruple the weight it gives attacking and passing. It doesn't make any sense. That's why Karakurt is number 1. Because her serving index is the highest.
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Post by ace35 on May 10, 2020 18:04:18 GMT -5
Like I said, in Gui's system, it's irrelevant who starts. What do you mean it’s irrelevant who starts? Are you saying that he won’t put his best 7 players on the floor for a match that determines who wins the league? Also, Karakurt only played against lower ranked teams which is why her stats are so good. She doesn’t see any floor time during the CL or any big match during the national league. Stats don’t lie, but they can be very deceiving I am saying that he won't always start the match (any match) with 7 best players. What's to stop him from quickly making a change, and letting a "sub" play the rest of the match? Gui doesn't share American obsession with the cult of starting and the social (or any other) prestige of being a starter. He is a cunning strategist, and a big picture kind of guy. As for your point about statistics and how they can be misleading, you would have known if you have actually watched Vakifbank matches, but Ebrar's job was to spike most of the out-of-system balls, and those sets resulting from bad reception (and no, she didn't play against only the bad teams). The fact that she did that, and still had the best index among all of the OH in the possibly best league in the world (or at least 2nd best) should tell you something.
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 18:06:47 GMT -5
What do you mean it’s irrelevant who starts? Are you saying that he won’t put his best 7 players on the floor for a match that determines who wins the league? Also, Karakurt only played against lower ranked teams which is why her stats are so good. She doesn’t see any floor time during the CL or any big match during the national league. Stats don’t lie, but they can be very deceiving I am saying that he won't always start the match (any match) with 7 best players. What's to stop him from quickly making a change, and letting a "sub" play the rest of the match? Gui doesn't share American obsession with the cult of starting and the social (or any other) prestige of being a starter. He is a cunning strategist, and a big picture kind of guy. As for your point about statistics and how they can be misleading, you would have known if you have actually watched Vakifbank matches, but Ebrar's job was to spike most of the out-of-system balls, and those sets resulting from bad reception (and no, she didn't play against only the bad teams). The fact that she did that, and still had the best index among all of the OH in the possibly best league in the world (or at least 2nd best) should tell you something. So what is the reasoning behind Guidetti not playing Karakurt in any CL match since MBH joined or against Eciz since she’s the best outside in Turkish League?
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Post by ace35 on May 10, 2020 18:15:48 GMT -5
I am saying that he won't always start the match (any match) with 7 best players. What's to stop him from quickly making a change, and letting a "sub" play the rest of the match? Gui doesn't share American obsession with the cult of starting and the social (or any other) prestige of being a starter. He is a cunning strategist, and a big picture kind of guy. As for your point about statistics and how they can be misleading, you would have known if you have actually watched Vakifbank matches, but Ebrar's job was to spike most of the out-of-system balls, and those sets resulting from bad reception (and no, she didn't play against only the bad teams). The fact that she did that, and still had the best index among all of the OH in the possibly best league in the world (or at least 2nd best) should tell you something. So what is the reasoning behind Guidetti not playing Karakurt in any CL match since MBH joined or against Eciz since she’s the best outside in Turkish League? I don't know. Why do you ask me, am I Guidetti? Besides, I return to this a 3rd time, but it's not my point that Ebrar is (in the abstract) the best volleyball player among all OHs who played in the Turkish league. My point is that she had a best season among all OHs in the league. I mean, it's like I am the one whose first language is English, instead of the other way around... (if your first language isn't English either, I apologise).
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 18:19:26 GMT -5
So what is the reasoning behind Guidetti not playing Karakurt in any CL match since MBH joined or against Eciz since she’s the best outside in Turkish League? I don't know. Why do you ask me, am I Guidetti? Besides, I return to this a 3rd time, but it's not my point that Ebrar is (in the abstract) the best volleyball player among all OHs who played in the Turkish league. My point is that she had a best season among all OHs in the league. I mean, it's like I am the one whose first language is English, instead of the other way around... (if your first language isn't English either, I apologise). But my point is that data is irrelevant. As other said there is no clear guideline on what those include (someone mentioned serve counting more than hitting and passing). Just because she’s ranked high in some index doesn’t mean she’s the best. Otherwise, she would be starting and wouldn’t be moving from Vakif to THY which is a significant downgrade. Also, I’m sure if bwfan wants to dig up numbers on her in terms of passing and hitting, you’ll see that her stats are not so shiny.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 18:20:30 GMT -5
I'm bored so dive in with some Vakif stats
Passing Karakurt: 43% positive passing, 23% perfect Gabi: 65% positive passing, 46% perfect Bartsch: 53% positive, 36% perfect
Attacking Karakurt: 2.37 k/s, 43% kill percent, .273 efficiency Gabi: 2.91 k/s, 49% kill percent, .369 efficiency Bartsch: 3.25 k/s, 40% kill percent, .215 efficiency
Blocking Karakurt: .41 b/s Gabi:.25 b/s Bartsch: .50 b/s
Serving Karakurt: .78 a/s, .84 service errors/set Gabi: .25 a/s, .35 service errors/set Bartsch: .13 a/s, .31 service errors/set
I think we can see where the flaw of the "index" is coming from
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Post by Hawk Attack on May 10, 2020 18:23:47 GMT -5
I would still pick KYK over Ebrar, for now. Ask me again after 2021 and that might change.
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 18:24:28 GMT -5
I'm bored so dive in with some Vakif stats PassingKarakurt: 43% positive passing, 23% perfect Gabi: 65% positive passing, 46% perfect Bartsch: 53% positive, 36% perfect Attacking
Karakurt: 2.37 k/s, 43% kill percent, .273 efficiency Gabi: 2.91 k/s, 49% kill percent, .369 efficiency Bartsch: 3.25 k/s, 40% kill percent, .215 efficiency Blocking
Karakurt: .41 b/s Gabi:.25 b/s Bartsch: .50 b/s Serving
Karakurt: .78 a/s, .84 service errors/set Gabi: .25 a/s, .35 service errors/set Bartsch: .13 a/s, .31 service errors/set I think we can see where the flaw of the "index" is coming from Also, these stats support that she doesn’t get that many swings, or she is very effective OOS. Or maybe they go to someone named Haak slightly more often
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 18:27:55 GMT -5
I'm bored so dive in with some Vakif stats PassingKarakurt: 43% positive passing, 23% perfect Gabi: 65% positive passing, 46% perfect Bartsch: 53% positive, 36% perfect Attacking
Karakurt: 2.37 k/s, 43% kill percent, .273 efficiency Gabi: 2.91 k/s, 49% kill percent, .369 efficiency Bartsch: 3.25 k/s, 40% kill percent, .215 efficiency Blocking
Karakurt: .41 b/s Gabi:.25 b/s Bartsch: .50 b/s Serving
Karakurt: .78 a/s, .84 service errors/set Gabi: .25 a/s, .35 service errors/set Bartsch: .13 a/s, .31 service errors/set I think we can see where the flaw of the "index" is coming from Also, these stats support that she doesn’t get that many swings, or she is very effective OOS. Or maybe they go to someone named Haak slightly more often we can go deeper. Swings per set: Karakurt: 5.53 Gabi: 5.98 Bartsch: 8.125 Haak: 8.9
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trojansc
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All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2023, 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017), All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team (2016), 2021, 2019 Fantasy League Champion, 2020 Fantasy League Runner Up, 2022 2nd Runner Up
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Post by trojansc on May 10, 2020 18:29:55 GMT -5
I would still pick KYK over Ebrar, for now. Ask me again after 2021 and that might change. And again — KYK was fantastic in her Olympic Qualifiers. In Turkey’s, Karakurt was benched in the Germany opening loss and didn’t play at all in the Final (which Turkey won 3-0)
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 18:30:18 GMT -5
Also, these stats support that she doesn’t get that many swings, or she is very effective OOS. Or maybe they go to someone named Haak slightly more often we can go deeper. Swings per set: Karakurt: 5.53 Gabi: 5.98 Bartsch: 8.125 Haak: 8.9 Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 18:30:57 GMT -5
we can go deeper. Swings per set: Karakurt: 5.53 Gabi: 5.98 Bartsch: 8.125 Haak: 8.9 Thank you for proving my point. not sure what your point is exactly tbh
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Post by fanbase on May 10, 2020 18:33:57 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. not sure what your point is exactly tbh That Karakurt is not the best OH in Turkey, even though she has the best index rating. Also, that Vakif doesn’t go to her in OOS.
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