Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 14:40:28 GMT -5
That's PART of what you said. You're doing it again. Surprised you'd take exception at the rest of my post. I think it's pretty clear from the number of Obama-Trump voters there was significant dissatisfaction with his presidency. I just didn't think it was the reason Trump got elected. I agree that there were many who were disappointed with Obama (myself included). I just don't think a truly significant number voted for Trump or didn't vote at all. Not compared to the other reasons Trump got votes or Hillary did not get votes.
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 14:42:27 GMT -5
abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/video-shows-man-apologized-honolulu-police-shot-78298312A black man apparently mistook an address, apologized for it, and went back to his car. Police showed up and killed him. Then they claimed he had attacked them and resisted their orders, but oops for them, doorbell camera shows they were lying. At least one officer shouted, "shoot him!". They only announced that they were the police after they had shot him. Have you watched the video? It’s dark, but I think it’s pretty obvious he attacked the officer. You’re right, they didn’t announce themselves as police, but he just walked into the wrong house and heard a woman frantically calling 9-1-1. Assuming it is a non-officer pointing a flash light and taser at you, telling you to get on the ground seems like a stretch. I don't know if you heard the victim's lawyer's explanation. Flashlights in the face would make it impossible to see if they were Police. That coupled with him being from a part of South Africa where robberies occur would give him a fight first mindset.
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Post by n00b on Jun 16, 2021 14:44:16 GMT -5
Have you watched the video? It’s dark, but I think it’s pretty obvious he attacked the officer. You’re right, they didn’t announce themselves as police, but he just walked into the wrong house and heard a woman frantically calling 9-1-1. Assuming it is a non-officer pointing a flash light and taser at you, telling you to get on the ground seems like a stretch. I don't know if you heard the victim's lawyer's explanation. Flashlights in the face would make it impossible to see if they were Police. That coupled with him being from a part of South Africa where robberies occur would give him a fight first mindset. Ok. Maybe true. So police should let him win the fight? Police should run away from him? Though I don’t understand your second paragraph. It wasn’t his house. And he acknowledged that. He thought he was randomly getting mugged on somebody else’s property? With a flashlight being shined on him instead of it happening in the dark?
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 14:50:44 GMT -5
I don't know if you heard the victim's lawyer's explanation. Flashlights in the face would make it impossible to see if they were Police. That coupled with him being from a part of South Africa where robberies occur would give him a fight first mindset. Ok. Maybe true. So police should let him win the fight? Police should run away from him? NO NO NO. I'm not saying that! I don't have any Blue Lives Matter signage but I do acknowledge their job is incredibly difficult/ dangerous and they have to make split second decisions. In this case (and in many others) I wish it wouldn't end in the death of someone. Especially in this case where it doesn't appear that the victim was a career criminal or intending harm. He mistakenly enters the wrong house and is dead 20 minutes later. That's chilling.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 14:53:00 GMT -5
It's not obvious he attacked the officer. We can't see what happened at initial contact and whether the officer initiated contact. What we do know is he was in a scuffle with unidentified individuals who approached, tased, and shot him.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 14:54:38 GMT -5
You have consistently said we should not acknowledge white privilege. Period. I've said this to you before - and you have not acknowledged it. What part don't you get about white privilege is NOT an 'All or nothing' issue. What's the issue? White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. It does NOT mean that a white person will have every single blanket advantage over every single other person in every single situation. The fact that you try to frame it as that is a dishonest attempt in my opinion to discredit the idea because you, for whatever reason, have an issue with acknowledging it. It also means you are less likely to be a victim of police brutality and less likely to be racially profiled. If you actually care about the racial issues you say you do, then you would acknowledge this is a part of it. I have continually agreed that any racism with the police should never be accepted and we should be doing everything to get rid of this. Equal protection under the law is most important. Yet, you and others continue to cite racism in the police force as your examples of racism in today's society. This has zero to do with Capitalism. This has nothing to do with school admission standards. This has little to do with CRT as being taught in elementary schools. The racial wealth gap in this country has zero to do with racism? The free market just by chance created these divergent outcomes with no impact by racism at all?
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 14:54:47 GMT -5
I don't know if you heard the victim's lawyer's explanation. Flashlights in the face would make it impossible to see if they were Police. That coupled with him being from a part of South Africa where robberies occur would give him a fight first mindset. Ok. Maybe true. So police should let him win the fight? Police should run away from him? Though I don’t understand your second paragraph. It wasn’t his house. And he acknowledged that. He thought he was randomly getting mugged on somebody else’s property? With a flashlight being shined on him instead of it happening in the dark? You come out of a house on the heels of a horribly disorienting encounter, next thing you know a light is shined in your face and you can't see. Is your logical conclusion "Oh the Police must be here routinely responding to what just happened." OR "WTF is going on now?!?" ? And sadly we don't know WHAT he thought and we can't ask him, cuz...
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Post by donut on Jun 16, 2021 14:56:51 GMT -5
You have consistently said we should not acknowledge white privilege. Period. I've said this to you before - and you have not acknowledged it. What part don't you get about white privilege is NOT an 'All or nothing' issue. What's the issue? White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. It does NOT mean that a white person will have every single blanket advantage over every single other person in every single situation. The fact that you try to frame it as that is a dishonest attempt in my opinion to discredit the idea because you, for whatever reason, have an issue with acknowledging it. It also means you are less likely to be a victim of police brutality and less likely to be racially profiled. If you actually care about the racial issues you say you do, then you would acknowledge this is a part of it. I have continually agreed that any racism with the police should never be accepted and we should be doing everything to get rid of this. Equal protection under the law is most important. Yet, you and others continue to cite racism in the police force as your examples of racism in today's society. This has zero to do with Capitalism. This has nothing to do with school admission standards. This has little to do with CRT as being taught in elementary schools. God, you are so f*cking dishonest. There has been ample discussion the last year or so about how racism permeates the schooling system, housing market, the criminal justice system, employment, healthcare, etc. You just refuse to engage with any of it. School admission standards (by which, I'm assuming you mean affirmative action) and teaching CRT (random?) are remedies to alleviating some of these systematic inequalities. Your fanciful and backwards "race blind" society does nothing to address those inequalities. It just helps you sleep better at night and feel more cozy/comfy in your white privilege and white fragility.
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Post by n00b on Jun 16, 2021 14:59:05 GMT -5
It's not obvious he attacked the officer. We can't see what happened at initial contact and whether the officer initiated contact. What we do know is he was in a scuffle with unidentified individuals who approached, tased, and shot him. True. Attacked could be the wrong word. While being yelled at to get on the ground, he didn’t do that. He didn’t run. He didn’t slowly walk the opposite direction. He walked at the officer, seemingly without hesitation. A technicality of who threw the first punch I don’t think really matters here. If an officer is trying to arrest you and you walk into their space, where you can reach their weapons, they have to physically intervene.
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 14:59:10 GMT -5
It's not obvious he attacked the officer. We can't see what happened at initial contact and whether the officer initiated contact. What we do know is he was in a scuffle with unidentified individuals who approached, tased, and shot him. I agree with most of that except; We know that he got into a scuffle with unidentified Police officers (why'd you say individuals?) We also don't know if the officers initiated (likely) or if HE initiated (possible).
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Post by donut on Jun 16, 2021 15:00:57 GMT -5
I have continually agreed that any racism with the police should never be accepted and we should be doing everything to get rid of this. Equal protection under the law is most important. Yet, you and others continue to cite racism in the police force as your examples of racism in today's society. This has zero to do with Capitalism. This has nothing to do with school admission standards. This has little to do with CRT as being taught in elementary schools. The racial wealth gap in this country has zero to do with racism? The free market just by chance created these divergent outcomes with no impact by racism at all? There's really only one way for people like blue and daryl (RIP) to rationalize their beliefs about systemic racism with things like the wealth gap, and that is people with darker skins are lazier and dumber (which at least we got daryl to say as much). Which, of course, is pretty racist.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 15:05:31 GMT -5
It's not obvious he attacked the officer. We can't see what happened at initial contact and whether the officer initiated contact. What we do know is he was in a scuffle with unidentified individuals who approached, tased, and shot him. I agree with most of that except; We know that he got into a scuffle with unidentified Police officers (why'd you say individuals?) We also don't know if the officers initiated (likely) or if HE initiated (possible). I said individuals because he didn't know they were officers, and they didn't identify themselves as such even though he LOUDLY and CLEARLY asked who they were.
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Post by n00b on Jun 16, 2021 15:06:13 GMT -5
Ok. Maybe true. So police should let him win the fight? Police should run away from him? Though I don’t understand your second paragraph. It wasn’t his house. And he acknowledged that. He thought he was randomly getting mugged on somebody else’s property? With a flashlight being shined on him instead of it happening in the dark? You come out of a house on the heels of a horribly disorienting encounter, next thing you know a light is shined in your face and you can't see. Is your logical conclusion "Oh the Police must be here routinely responding to what just happened." OR "WTF is going on now?!?" ? And sadly we don't know WHAT he thought and we can't ask him, cuz... And I agree that all of that might be true. But if you are disoriented and read a situation wrong, and what you end up doing is engaging a police officer in a fight, this happens. Yes, it’s tragic. But that doesn’t mean anybody acted incorrectly.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 16, 2021 15:12:11 GMT -5
You come out of a house on the heels of a horribly disorienting encounter, next thing you know a light is shined in your face and you can't see. Is your logical conclusion "Oh the Police must be here routinely responding to what just happened." OR "WTF is going on now?!?" ? And sadly we don't know WHAT he thought and we can't ask him, cuz... And I agree that all of that might be true. But if you are disoriented and read a situation wrong, and what you end up doing is engaging a police officer in a fight, this happens. Yes, it’s tragic. But that doesn’t mean anybody acted incorrectly. He was unarmed. He was asking them who they were. They killed him. *Then* they said they were the police. And my god, your take on this is that nobody "acted incorrectly". I will also point out that the police acted *very* strongly to suppress this video from being public. This all happened in April, but the courts only ruled yesterday against the police suppressing the video. One might read from this that *they* think the video shows somebody "acting incorrectly"....
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 15:13:10 GMT -5
You come out of a house on the heels of a horribly disorienting encounter, next thing you know a light is shined in your face and you can't see. Is your logical conclusion "Oh the Police must be here routinely responding to what just happened." OR "WTF is going on now?!?" ? And sadly we don't know WHAT he thought and we can't ask him, cuz... And I agree that all of that might be true. But if you are disoriented and read a situation wrong, and what you end up doing is engaging a police officer in a fight, this happens. Yes, it’s tragic. But that doesn’t mean anybody acted incorrectly. I agree with that EXCEPT I feel the officer acted incorrectly by not identifying himself clearly as a police officer.
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